What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

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passel
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What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by passel » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:14 am

What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity down?
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

smcj
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Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by smcj » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:20 am

passel wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:14 am
What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity down?
If by “down” you mean accessible, that’s what it is.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Simon E.
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Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by Simon E. » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:48 am

Seeing the Lama as pure is about you. Not about them.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

haha
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Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by haha » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:19 am

It is just like showing the moon by a figure. First, one sees that the person who has taught the essence is as the Buddha. Then, one sees that oneself as the Buddha. And then, one sees all sentient beings as the Buddha.

Yeti
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Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by Yeti » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:34 am

passel wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:14 am
What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity down?
Yes it is, because the whole thing is encapsulated within the Five Certainties. http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/nges_pa_lnga
"People are fond of saying all sorts of things about others behind their backs, mentioning their names again and again. Instead of slandering others in this way, “slander” the yidam: utter his name repeatedly by reciting his mantra all the time." - Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche - Zurchungpa’s Testament - Shambhala Publications

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:10 pm

Something often glossed over in these conversations is that some lama's are ACTUALLY pure.

So sometimes it is a matter of seeing accurately.

Another thing, the lama is not understood as a separate entity, but your Buddha nature in "external form" (to use a limitation of language). Due to ones merit we are able to via communication come to the recognition of the Inner Guru, from this 'outer' reflection of our merit appearing as a spiritual guide.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

zerwe
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Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by zerwe » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:45 pm

I would say that it should be less about lifting the lama up and more about bringing purity to your mind.
Shaun :namaste:

kausalya
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Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by kausalya » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:03 pm

zerwe wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:45 pm
I would say that it should be less about lifting the lama up and more about bringing purity to your mind.
Shaun :namaste:
Depends on how you look, too. Why can't you imagine both happening simultaneously?

My life tells me that there is equal blessing for teacher and students if samaya is maintained:

You help the guru achieve the goal of learning about & liberating people from your Buddha-family, and the guru teaches you to see the world as he does, so you can carry on the goal of furthering the lineage on his behalf. (For most of us this is done in secret, through the display of bodhichitta to other beings who are receptive and in need of help. Secrecy is what prevents this result from being spoiled in the short term, such as by the ridicule of others.)

If you have a human teacher, you carry each other up alternate steps of the ladder. We can view all beings this way, using the profound method of Guru Yoga. Faith & watchfulness are the only prerequisites there.

* Note that I would never seek to exclude female teachers from the same duty, but I'm unsure of how to avoid awkward-sounding prose most times. My only teachers have thus far been male, which is a situation I hope to correct.
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)

smcj
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Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by smcj » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:34 pm

Something often glossed over in these conversations is that some lama's are ACTUALLY pure.

So sometimes it is a matter of seeing accurately.
And so, in those cases, seeing fault and criticizing actually is just the dirt on your own glasses. Having a lama that’s without fault is a true gift because you can dismiss your own negativity as invalid.

But how to deal with your own negativity when the lama does have fault? It’s still there regardless of the lama’s qualities (or lack thereof)?
I would say that it should be less about lifting the lama up and more about bringing purity to your mind.
And that is largely done by refraining from finding fault
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

kausalya
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:52 pm

Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by kausalya » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:20 am

smcj wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:34 pm
Something often glossed over in these conversations is that some lama's are ACTUALLY pure.

So sometimes it is a matter of seeing accurately.
And so, in those cases, seeing fault and criticizing actually is just the dirt on your own glasses. Having a lama that’s without fault is a true gift because you can dismiss your own negativity as invalid.

But how to deal with your own negativity when the lama does have fault? It’s still there regardless of the lama’s qualities (or lack thereof)?
I would say that it should be less about lifting the lama up and more about bringing purity to your mind.
And that is largely done by refraining from finding fault
In other words, we need to cultivate a high degree of discriminative wisdom, so that we have the eye to see the lama's actions as a lesson. Even when they display the appearance of faults! :P
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)

smcj
Posts: 6947
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: What if seeing a lama as pure was less about lifting a lama up and more about bringing purity

Post by smcj » Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:05 am

In other words, we need to cultivate a high degree of discriminative wisdom, so that we have the eye to see the lama's actions as a lesson. Even when they display the appearance of faults!
In the case of a lama that does have faults I wouldn’t call it discriminative wisdom. I’d call it double-think. But the goal isn’t to perpetuate a patriarchy, or make a personality cult. Those are unfortunate possible abuses. Rather it’s a commitment to abandon your own negativity in how you see things. You start by seeing just one thing as without fault—your lama. Then you expand on that to other aspects of life. Finall you can see it in your own mind.

But without a lama who has lineage and some cultivated good qualities to start you off, it’s just head tripping yourself.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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