"Secret Wisdom"

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Cinnabar
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"Secret Wisdom"

Post by Cinnabar » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:23 pm

So I'm reading this translation of three texts by Christopher Wilkinson called "Secret Wisdom".

I'm trying to put these three texts in context.

The Tantra of the Secret Wisdom of the Great Perfection
rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba'i rgyud

Clarity Equal to the Limit
byang chub kyi sems rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba bshad pa'i rgyud gsal ba mtha' dang mnyam pa shes bya ba

The Unborn Root Tantra of Great Sky Vajrasattva
rdo rje sems dpa' nam mkah' che rtsa ba'i rgyud skye ba med pa

Can anybody say anything about them? I'm not able to contextualize them.

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Grigoris
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:35 pm

Cinnabar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:23 pm
So I'm reading this translation of three texts by Christopher Wilkinson called "Secret Wisdom".

I'm trying to put these three texts in context.

The Tantra of the Secret Wisdom of the Great Perfection
rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba'i rgyud

Clarity Equal to the Limit
byang chub kyi sems rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba bshad pa'i rgyud gsal ba mtha' dang mnyam pa shes bya ba

The Unborn Root Tantra of Great Sky Vajrasattva
rdo rje sems dpa' nam mkah' che rtsa ba'i rgyud skye ba med pa

Can anybody say anything about them? I'm not able to contextualize them.
Do you have a lung (ritual reading) for these texts?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:35 pm
Cinnabar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:23 pm
So I'm reading this translation of three texts by Christopher Wilkinson called "Secret Wisdom".

I'm trying to put these three texts in context.

The Tantra of the Secret Wisdom of the Great Perfection
rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba'i rgyud

Clarity Equal to the Limit
byang chub kyi sems rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba bshad pa'i rgyud gsal ba mtha' dang mnyam pa shes bya ba

The Unborn Root Tantra of Great Sky Vajrasattva
rdo rje sems dpa' nam mkah' che rtsa ba'i rgyud skye ba med pa

Can anybody say anything about them? I'm not able to contextualize them.
Do you have a lung (ritual reading) for these texts?
Cinnbar does not necessarily need them. If he or she has been given DI, or permission from his or her teacher, it is perfectly OK to read them.
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

Cinnabar
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Cinnabar » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:35 pm
Do you have a lung (ritual reading) for these texts?
I have permission to read the English translation by my teacher.

I don't know if I have the lung or not until I can contextualize it.
And if I don't, I can't get it until I can contextualize it.

CC

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:53 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:35 pm
Cinnabar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:23 pm
So I'm reading this translation of three texts by Christopher Wilkinson called "Secret Wisdom".

I'm trying to put these three texts in context.

The Tantra of the Secret Wisdom of the Great Perfection
rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba'i rgyud

Clarity Equal to the Limit
byang chub kyi sems rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba bshad pa'i rgyud gsal ba mtha' dang mnyam pa shes bya ba

The Unborn Root Tantra of Great Sky Vajrasattva
rdo rje sems dpa' nam mkah' che rtsa ba'i rgyud skye ba med pa

Can anybody say anything about them? I'm not able to contextualize them.
Do you have a lung (ritual reading) for these texts?
There are plenty of respected teachers that do not expect their students to have Lungs for everything they read, just as there are plenty of teachers who do not emphasize uncommon Ngondro practice etc. There is really no hard and fast rule there that I have seen other than "get a lung if and when you can".
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Grigoris
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:55 pm

If you can get the lung, do so.

It helps.

A lot.

And it's got nothing to do with permission; although that is one aspect of lung.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Cinnabar
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Cinnabar » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:30 pm

This is why I don't participate more here.

My question was clearly not about practice.

I was clearly and explicitly asking about the context of these texts. Which is really a historical-literary question.

They aren't in the standard lists of root tantras of semde, longde or upadesha.

I don't know if they are a standard part of the Nyingma kama.

From what I could poke at, it seemed like they were part of some collections, but not others. Why is that?

In his introduction the translator indicates they are part of the kama, the Nyingma rgyu bum. I just don't have a clue how that's put together. Are these texts like daughters to the main tantras? Is there an "other" folder?

That's all. I'm not flying solo trying to practice without a lama, trying to get instructions on the internet.

The question really just comes from looking at the lists of root tantras and realizing that Wilkinson and Smith had translated a bunch-- but then, bummer, I have this one Wilkinson volume not on any of the lists.

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Grigoris
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:41 pm

Cinnabar wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:30 pm
This is why I don't participate more here.

My question was clearly not about practice.

I was clearly and explicitly asking about the context of these texts. Which is really a historical-literary question.

They aren't in the standard lists of root tantras of semde, longde or upadesha.

I don't know if they are a standard part of the Nyingma kama.

From what I could poke at, it seemed like they were part of some collections, but not others. Why is that?

In his introduction the translator indicates they are part of the kama, the Nyingma rgyu bum. I just don't have a clue how that's put together. Are these texts like daughters to the main tantras? Is there an "other" folder?

That's all. I'm not flying solo trying to practice without a lama, trying to get instructions on the internet.

The question really just comes from looking at the lists of root tantras and realizing that Wilkinson and Smith had translated a bunch-- but then, bummer, I have this one Wilkinson volume not on any of the lists.
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I am not to blame if you do not understand the value of lung.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Cinnabar
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Cinnabar » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:50 pm

I know the value of lung.

And as I said above, I can not even tell if I have the lung unless I can locate it in the larger body of literature.

CC

smcj
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by smcj » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:30 pm

It’s possible nobody here has the answer to your question.

Go to Malcolm Smith’s Facebook page and ask him.

Sorry but I don’t have the link.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:45 pm

Cinnabar wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:30 pm
This is why I don't participate more here.

My question was clearly not about practice.

I was clearly and explicitly asking about the context of these texts. Which is really a historical-literary question.

They aren't in the standard lists of root tantras of semde, longde or upadesha.

I don't know if they are a standard part of the Nyingma kama.

From what I could poke at, it seemed like they were part of some collections, but not others. Why is that?

In his introduction the translator indicates they are part of the kama, the Nyingma rgyu bum. I just don't have a clue how that's put together. Are these texts like daughters to the main tantras? Is there an "other" folder?

That's all. I'm not flying solo trying to practice without a lama, trying to get instructions on the internet.

The question really just comes from looking at the lists of root tantras and realizing that Wilkinson and Smith had translated a bunch-- but then, bummer, I have this one Wilkinson volume not on any of the lists.
Have you asked Wilkinson?
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Grigoris
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:51 pm

Cinnabar wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:50 pm
I know the value of lung.

And as I said above, I can not even tell if I have the lung unless I can locate it in the larger body of literature.

CC
It was unclear to me what you meant by "context" in the opening statement.

Generally, when people talk about context in terms of Tantra, my mind goes straight to practice. Weirdly enough. :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:10 pm

I went ahead and moved this to academic discussion, at that seems a more appropriate place for it.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

Cinnabar
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Cinnabar » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:51 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:51 pm
Cinnabar wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:50 pm
I know the value of lung.

And as I said above, I can not even tell if I have the lung unless I can locate it in the larger body of literature.

CC
It was unclear to me what you meant by "context" in the opening statement.

Generally, when people talk about context in terms of Tantra, my mind goes straight to practice. Weirdly enough. :smile:
And if I had discussed tantra re practice in specifics I'd be: a) breaking vows; b) likely called out by members of the board (and rightfully so); and c) shut down by the admins (also rightfully so).

So, yea. Weirdly. I wasn't doing that. :smile:

Cinnabar
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Cinnabar » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:57 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:10 pm
I went ahead and moved this to academic discussion, at that seems a more appropriate place for it.
Thanks.

I probably should have put it there to begin with. I thought I was asking an obvious thing, which is why I posted it where I did.

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ratna
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Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by ratna » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:53 am

Cinnabar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:23 pm
The Tantra of the Secret Wisdom of the Great Perfection
rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba'i rgyud
This is one of the root Tantras of Longde.

R
Don't touch me while I'm tantric.

Cinnabar
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: "Secret Wisdom"

Post by Cinnabar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:29 pm

ratna wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:53 am
Cinnabar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:23 pm
The Tantra of the Secret Wisdom of the Great Perfection
rdzogs pa chen po ye shes gsang ba'i rgyud
This is one of the root Tantras of Longde.

R
Thanks! That was precisely the type of context I was looking for. And just that is precisely helpful.

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