Dharma Wheel

Malcolm wrote:because his views came under such harsh criticism from Sakya scholars such as Gorampa.

Such as?

Malcolm is one of the few people who hold the distinguished title of Loppon.

Kevin

Konchog1 wrote:

Malcolm wrote:because his views came under such harsh criticism from Sakya scholars such as Gorampa.

Such as?

Gorampa, in his commentary on the Madhyamakāvatara lists over a hundred points where he thinks Tsongkhapa erred.

The standard summary of Gorampa's critiques of Tsongkhapa are to found in his famous "Differentiation of Views".

Thus far, Gorampa's views have not been effectively countered by any Gelug scholar I know as they generally refuse to read Gorampa.

Punya wrote: I wonder why you are asking the question. Not to be provocative but just asking.

Spillover from another thread. I was talking about the current Karma Kagyu interpretation of Shentong and I said that it was better to ask an ethnically Tibetan lama rather than a white guy. That led to a question about who is authoritative to answer questions about Shentong for the Karma Kagyus, etc.

My understanding is that that not all geshes are empowered to teach. I get the impression that a geshe would have a very thorough understanding of the theory but not necessarily be so strong on practice. I'm not so sure about khenpos, but I think this title more specifically designates them as teachers.

The geshe degree is for an academic understanding of Dharma. So they can answer questions and teach within limits.

It might be more useful to know which westerners are empowered to teach but I guess that would be a longer list.

Start a new thread!

It seems like what you mean is that the khenpos have the appropriate training to answer such questions and as far you know the khenpos are all tibetan ie it's about training not ethnicity.

The respected khenpos are the go-to guys because the tibetan incarnate rinpoches don't receive the same kind of education. Well, according to the rinpoches I know anyway.

I don't necessarily agree though with the general premise that non-khenpos or geshes can't be authoritative. My local rinpoche has a very high regard for Robert Thurman, for example. But perhaps you are only talking in the context of Karma Kagyu and your other discussion.

Virgo wrote:Malcolm is one of the few people who hold the distinguished title of Loppon.

Kevin

What is the difference between loppon and khenpo?

I know a loppon who has a very limited breadth of knowledge, I think it was just an honorary title I guess. . or maybe it acknowledges their competence and capacity in a particular focus of Dharma practice and study, rather than a wide one. I think Khenpo usually indicates someone with a vast breadth of knowledge in the Dharma, that's why I am asking.. never been clear on the meaning of loppon.

Malcolm wrote:

Konchog1 wrote:

Malcolm wrote:because his views came under such harsh criticism from Sakya scholars such as Gorampa.

Such as?

Gorampa, in his commentary on the Madhyamakāvatara lists over a hundred points where he thinks Tsongkhapa erred.

The standard summary of Gorampa's critiques of Tsongkhapa are to found in his famous "Differentiation of Views".

Thus far, Gorampa's views have not been effectively countered by any Gelug scholar I know as they generally refuse to read Gorampa.

Hmm, no English translation. Could you please bulletpoint some of them here?

Konchog1 wrote:Hmm, no English translation. Could you please bulletpoint some of them here?

No, there is –look here http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Extremes- ... ds=gorampa

Adamantine wrote:
.. never been clear on the meaning of loppon.

Maybe some of my old notes (although they are rather random) could add to your study of the word "Loppon", basically I think when they refer to just "Lopon" this means teacher, especially a scholarly teacher, whereas a "Dorje Lopon" has the connotation of being a "Vajra Master".

"Lopön is a Tibetan word that means 'teacher' (acarya in Sanskrit)"... according to The Lotus Garden site, also
Mindrolling Jetsün Khandro Rinpoche appointed western Lopön's at Mindroling Lotus Garden:
http://www.lotusgardens.org/lopons/index.cfm

There is also the term "Dorje Lopon" (Wylie: rdo-rje slob-dpon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Lop%C3%B6n (A Dorje Lopon) has the meaning of being a "Vajra Master".

Ani Lopon Yeshe Lhamo
http://damchoe.wordpress.com/2007/01/18 ... -teachers/

Lopön Peter
http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_282.html
http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_280.html

"Lopon" Tenzin Namdak (is of course, also a Rinpoche)
Lopon also spelled Loppön, is used for "Loppön" Jigme Rinpoche

Instance of a non monastic teacher in Drikung Kagyu being titled a "Dorje Lopon" in the West:
Asheville-based Urban Dharma NC founder Hun Y. Lye honored by Tibetan buddhist organization
"Dr. Hun Y. Lye, Founder and President of Urban Dharma NC, has had the title and position of “Dorjé Lopön” (Vajra Master) bestowed upon him by His Holiness Drikung Kyabgön Chetsang Rinpoché, the leader of the Drikung Kagyü lineage of Tibetan Buddhism at Drikung Kagyü Institute in Dehradun, India, on March 10, 2013. This is the first instance the title of Dorjé Lopön has been given to a non-monastic teacher in the Drikung Kagyü in the West."

Article: http://www.mountainx.com/article/49149/ ... ganization

Adamantine wrote:

Konchog1 wrote:Hmm, no English translation. Could you please bulletpoint some of them here?

No, there is –look here http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Extremes- ... ds=gorampa

Odd. I don't know why I didn't find it. Thank you.

I know this is a dead thread

But I thought you might like to know that Ven. Tenzin Namdak is preparing for his Geshe exam in May. And, Geshe Graham Woodhouse is a western Geshe who lives in the UK.

smcj wrote:

Bon geshes? Doesn't sound right. I can't see them having any overlap with Gelugpas.

I think that in the Yungdrung Bön tradition:

Khenpo = Tha Abbot of the Monastery
Gueshe = Gueshe as know in Guelug school
Lopön = The dean / head of the Shedra or Drupdra

Adamantine wrote:

Virgo wrote:Malcolm is one of the few people who hold the distinguished title of Loppon.

Kevin

What is the difference between loppon and khenpo?

I know a loppon who has a very limited breadth of knowledge, I think it was just an honorary title I guess. . or maybe it acknowledges their competence and capacity in a particular focus of Dharma practice and study, rather than a wide one. I think Khenpo usually indicates someone with a vast breadth of knowledge in the Dharma, that's why I am asking.. never been clear on the meaning of loppon.

It means the Tibetan for acharya.

Kevin

Lobsang Chojor wrote:I know this is a dead thread

But I thought you might like to know that Ven. Tenzin Namdak is preparing for his Geshe exam in May. And, Geshe Graham Woodhouse is a western Geshe who lives in the UK.

I was mistaken Geshe Tenzin Namdak had his graduation on the 6th May and graduated as a Lingse Geshe, some photos on the Sera Jey Monastery facebook page.

Virgo wrote:

Adamantine wrote:

Virgo wrote:Malcolm is one of the few people who hold the distinguished title of Loppon.

Kevin

What is the difference between loppon and khenpo?

I know a loppon who has a very limited breadth of knowledge, I think it was just an honorary title I guess. . or maybe it acknowledges their competence and capacity in a particular focus of Dharma practice and study, rather than a wide one. I think Khenpo usually indicates someone with a vast breadth of knowledge in the Dharma, that's why I am asking.. never been clear on the meaning of loppon.

It means the Tibetan for acharya.

Kevin

I have met some pretty stupid khenpos...there are some who are really just business khenpos.

Konchog1 wrote:

Adamantine wrote:

Konchog1 wrote:Hmm, no English translation. Could you please bulletpoint some of them here?

No, there is –look here http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Extremes- ... ds=gorampa

Odd. I don't know why I didn't find it. Thank you.

A very good book which contains Gorampa's refutation of Tsongkhapa's view of Madhyamaka is 'Mipham's Beacon Of Certainty' by John W Petit. This is an excellent book on many levels and covers a tremendous amount of territory regarding the history Of Madhyamaka, Yogacara, and Vajrayana, up through Dzogchen.

Adamantine wrote:

Virgo wrote:Malcolm is one of the few people who hold the distinguished title of Loppon.

Kevin

What is the difference between loppon and khenpo?

I know a loppon who has a very limited breadth of knowledge, I think it was just an honorary title I guess. . or maybe it acknowledges their competence and capacity in a particular focus of Dharma practice and study, rather than a wide one. I think Khenpo usually indicates someone with a vast breadth of knowledge in the Dharma, that's why I am asking.. never been clear on the meaning of loppon.

Titles are pretty useless.
I was on a retreat once with a geshe who was shockingly clueless and didnt believe me when i told him huffing gasoline was dangerous.
No joke.

Josef wrote: Titles are pretty useless.
I was on a retreat once with a geshe who was shockingly clueless and didnt believe me when i told him huffing gasoline was dangerous.
No joke.

That is scary.

Virgo