Mahayana/Yogacara Abhidharma reflects Pali Nikayas better than Theravadin Abhidhamma

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MiphamFan
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Mahayana/Yogacara Abhidharma reflects Pali Nikayas better than Theravadin Abhidhamma

Post by MiphamFan »

I'm reading through Lusthaus' "Buddhist Phenomenology" now, I'm still near the beginning but I found this interesting note by him that Walpola Rahula had already noted in 1978 in "A Comparative Study of the Dhyanas according to Theravada, Sarvastivada and Mahayana" in Zen and the Taming of the Bull that the Abhidharmasamuccaya is closer to the Nikayas than the Theravadin Abhidhamma texts when they talk about the same topics.

I have tried to study Boin's translation of Rahula's edition of the Abhidharmasamuccaya and definitely found his referencing of the Nikayas when appropriate very useful. I search for the relevant sutta when I find the Samuccaya itself unclear and it often helps clarify things.

I find this insight very interesting though, since AFAIK, it basically reflects what the early Yogacarins and Madhyamikas themselves said, following the trend of the Sautrantikas: that they were just correcting errors that the different Abhidharma schools had made in introducing eternalism in various forms to the Dharma.

I think this is a hint that indeed various aspects of what is called "Yogacara" might really have been handed down from a period before the Pali Nikayas split from the Northern schools and thus various aspects of the "Mahayana" might have origins at least in the pre-split period.
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Mkoll
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Re: Mahayana/Yogacara Abhidharma reflects Pali Nikayas better than Theravadin Abhidhamma

Post by Mkoll »

MiphamFan wrote:Furthermore, IIRC Wedemeyer also noted the survival of a prayer indicating the existence of multiple Buddhas in Pali, which goes against the traditional Theravadin view.
DN 14 and 32 talk about other Buddhas. AN 4.67 also refers to different Buddhas. A few suttas in SN 12 refer to them. MN 81 recounts a story with Kassapa Buddha. I'm sure there are a few more that I've missed. There is also the Buddhavamsa in the KN which is a whole text about different Buddhas. So I don't think it can be said that the traditional Theravada view precludes the existence of multiple Buddhas.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
MiphamFan
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Re: Mahayana/Yogacara Abhidharma reflects Pali Nikayas better than Theravadin Abhidhamma

Post by MiphamFan »

Traditional Theravada refers to the tradition handed down by Theravadin practitioners, not the Nikayas.

There can be different traditions which share the same source text, e.g., the Hebrew Bible, shared by different Jewish and Christian traditions.

With Theravada, people conflate the Pali Nikayas with the Theravada interpretation of it. Theravada |= Pali Canon. It received and maintained the Canon, yes, but one should not conflate the Theravada tradition itself with the original text.
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Mkoll
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Re: Mahayana/Yogacara Abhidharma reflects Pali Nikayas better than Theravadin Abhidhamma

Post by Mkoll »

MiphamFan wrote:Traditional Theravada refers to the tradition handed down by Theravadin practitioners, not the Nikayas.
And what would that be?

I don't think you'll find an answer because the traditions (note the plural) handed down by Theravada practitioners are heterogeneous. The closest thing to a monolithic Theravada tradition is exemplified by the Buddhist Councils, the most recent being the Sixth.
Pariyatti.org wrote:The Sixth Council opened on May 17, 1954. Like the preceding councils, its chief objective was to recite, affirm and preserve the genuine wording of the Vinaya, Suttas and Abhidhamma--the pariyatti--as related by the Buddha and his principal disciples. This Council was unique in that the 2,500 learned Theravāda monks who participated came from eight countries--Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, India and Nepal--unlike previous councils which had included monks from the host countries only. Mahayana monks and representatives from all Buddhist countries also attended.

The complete traditional recitation of the Theravada Canon took two years, from 1954 to 1956. The Pali Tipiṭaka and its allied literature in all the diverse national scripts were painstakingly examined, their differences noted, necessary corrections made, and all the versions collated. Happily, it was found that there were only minor differences in the content of comparable texts in the various scripts. After the Council had officially approved them, the volumes of the Canon and its Commentaries were prepared for printing on modern presses and published in the Myanmar (Burmese) script. By the time the Council was over, all the participating countries had had the Tipiṭaka rendered into their native scripts, with the exception of India. The Council closed on the full moon of May 1956, exactly two and a half millennia after the Buddha attained parinibbāna. The version of the Tipiṭaka which the Sixth Buddhist Council produced is recognized as being true to the pristine teachings of Gotama the Buddha and the most authoritative rendering of them to date.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Bakmoon
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Re: Mahayana/Yogacara Abhidharma reflects Pali Nikayas better than Theravadin Abhidhamma

Post by Bakmoon »

MiphamFan wrote:Furthermore, IIRC Wedemeyer also noted the survival of a prayer indicating the existence of multiple Buddhas in Pali, which goes against the traditional Theravadin view.
Oh come off it. Theravadins believe in the existence of previous Buddhas, there is no doubt about that. They're mentioned by name in our texts, and one of the most popular chants used as a blessing is the Atthavisati Paritta which is largely just a list of the names of the 28 most recent Sammasambuddhas, and you can sometimes find images of previous Buddhas in our temples as well.
MiphamFan
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Re: Mahayana/Yogacara Abhidharma reflects Pali Nikayas better than Theravadin Abhidhamma

Post by MiphamFan »

I didn't say Theravadins don't believe in past Buddhas I said they don't believe in multiple Buddhas. They don't believe more than one Buddha can exist in a single dispensation, something actually the other Abhidharma schools did believe. However an old Pali prayer survives which does mention multiple Buddhas of the present.

Anyway I realised this was tangential to the main point so I removed it in the OP. The point in the OP is that Yogacara is often more faithful to the Nikayas than Theravadin commentaries.
Greg
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Re: Mahayana/Yogacara Abhidharma reflects Pali Nikayas better than Theravadin Abhidhamma

Post by Greg »

MiphamFan wrote:I'm reading through Lusthaus' "Buddhist Phenomenology" now, I'm still near the beginning but I found this interesting note by him that Walpola Rahula had already noted in 1978 in "A Comparative Study of the Dhyanas according to Theravada, Sarvastivada and Mahayana" in Zen and the Taming of the Bull that the Abhidharmasamuccaya is closer to the Nikayas than the Theravadin Abhidhamma texts when they talk about the same topics.
Interesting article, and available: http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... Rahula.pdf.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Mahayana/Yogacara Abhidharma reflects Pali Nikayas better than Theravadin Abhidhamma

Post by kalden yungdrung »

MiphamFan wrote:I didn't say Theravadins don't believe in past Buddhas I said they don't believe in multiple Buddhas. They don't believe more than one Buddha can exist in a single dispensation, something actually the other Abhidharma schools did believe. However an old Pali prayer survives which does mention multiple Buddhas of the present.

Anyway I realised this was tangential to the main point so I removed it in the OP. The point in the OP is that Yogacara is often more faithful to the Nikayas than Theravadin commentaries.

Tashi delek ,

Well maybe an exception.

My Thai girlfriend is convinced as Theravada Buddhist, in the existence of many countless Buddhas in the countless universa.
Also the future Buddha Maitreya is not at all a problem for her to accept.

Then she does know also that there is the Mahayana Buddhism, which is also accepted by her.
That all is included in her Buddhist visions.

Mutsug Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation
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