Non-random Mother India

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KarmaOcean
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Non-random Mother India

Postby KarmaOcean » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:05 pm

Hello fellow forum members,

I have the impression that indigenous Indian spirituality often conveyed the notion of regarding the world around oneself as aspects of a poetic and divine story.

In this notion, a person would be, fundamentally, a character or player in their own life story by virtue of being born.

I picked up that one might regard even the smallest aspects of life as sublime "words" which together form a greater "story".

The universe, in this context, would not be random or without specific purpose as western science might convey.

The context of a non-random universe as a purposeful manifestation may give rise to the view of seeing absolutely everything around oneself as a source of divine nourishment for growth in life.

For example, in this outlook, you might even read my own words and savour a personal context, that I myself never intended to convey, brought about by cosmic synchronicity inherent in a non-random universe.

It seems to me very humbling to look at the world in front of oneself as a vast purposeful resource.

With regards to The teaching of The Buddha;

The Buddha taught in India to people of a certain cultural mind-set, I guess, and I therefore also suppose he delivered his sophisticated teaching to minds that already had been conditioned by "Mother India".

Although my question in relation to this might be misplaced, I'd be very thankful if any forum member would consider it and offer my thanks for the time you have already spent reading this post so far...

I wonder if The Buddha ever instructed in the context of the "Mother India" mind-set or if The Buddha always instructed that strict renunciation to be the best way?

If Buddha did instruct in accordance with "Mother India" mind-set then any recommendation of specific sutras would also be most welcome by myself.

Thanks.

Soma999
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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby Soma999 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:32 am

Boudhha was living in a hindu country, so of course the hindu mindset is present.

Concerning renonciation, there are, to generalise, two kinds : renonciation of actions, and renonciation through action.

Renonciation of actions is pure renonciation : it's quiet ascetic, and imply to really cut of from the world in a very strict sense. I don't have much to say about it.

Renonciation through actions came by teaching like the Bhagavad Gita, where Lord Krishna talked with Arjuna about profund subjects. There, Krishna explain that renonciation is the "renonciation to egotism", that is making actions an offering to the divine, acting but without being attached to the fruits of your action. That is acting with efficiency.

That means you keep acting, but the intention imply giving, generosity, offering... you are "in the world but nor from the world".

To give an exemple, renonciation through action would be someone who build an hospitals about of love, our of charity for suffering people inside his heart., even considering he just do what is right, being a tool in the hands of God.

The opposite would be someone creating the hospital considering "ah, i am going to be recognised, appreciated"... in the intention he does it for himself.

When you remplace "i do it for myself" with the intention "i do it as an offering, for others" (even if i gain something out of it), you practice renonciation.

So, it's a matter of intention, a purification of your motivation. In fact, it can be resumed to "loving others as you love yourself".

You can cook as an offering, chant as an offering, garden as an offering, even walk as an offering.

Considering buddhism, the Hinayana imply a strong renonciation which is not so subtle. The kind of renonciation spoken by Krishna can be found in the Mahayana and the Vajrayana.

For exemple, i would suggest the book "mother of the buddha" by Lex Hixon which give a deep philosophical view of the Prajnaparamita and the Mahayana.

Considering Vajrayana, and all authentic Tantras, nothing is rejected. All can be used for one spiritual awakening.

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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby DGA » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:20 pm

Soma999 wrote:Boudhha was living in a hindu country, so of course the hindu mindset is present.


Not really. Hinduism didn't exist in the time of Buddha Shakyamuni. Vedic culture, sure, but Hinduism as we understand it today? Nope. Texts like

Bhagavad Gita


did not exist yet. Bhagavad Gita was written centuries after the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, in the second century BCE.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:32 pm

DGA wrote:
Bhagavad Gita


did not exist yet. Bhagavad Gita was written centuries after the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, in the second century BCE.
It appeared in its final definetive form at this time yes, but it preexisted its book form and its present manifestation as oral literature for many many years. We can't really say when the Bhagavadgītā first started to coalesce into its modern form for sure. It was such a popular set of legends and teachings. Evidenced by the fact that many non-Indian cultures around India have retentions of the Bhagavadgītā that are not the same as the Indian Bhagavadgītā, yet are clearly related to it or earlier versions of it from India. I am thinking particularly about the Bhagavadgītā in the Mahābhārata of the island of Bali, which has a very rich musical culture associated with renditions of it.

Scholars date also date the standardization of the Bhagavadgītā as originating anywhere between 600BC and 200AD, so we don't really necessarily know for sure when it became "standardized".

Edit: Apparently the tradition I was thinking of in Bali is actually a parallel of the Rāmāyaṇam, not the Mahābhārata. I could have sworn that I remembered a certain Indonesian island preserving a gamelan that functions as a indigenous mythic parallel to the Mahābhārata, but I'm not so sure now, I'll have to look into my books and see what it is I am half remembering.
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby DGA » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:30 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
DGA wrote:
Bhagavad Gita


did not exist yet. Bhagavad Gita was written centuries after the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, in the second century BCE.
It appeared in its final definetive form at this time yes, but it preexisted its book form and its present manifestation as oral literature for many many years. We can't really say when the Bhagavadgītā first started to coalesce into its modern form for sure. It was such a popular set of legends and teachings. Evidenced by the fact that many non-Indian cultures around India have retentions of the Bhagavadgītā that are not the same as the Indian Bhagavadgītā, yet are clearly related to it or earlier versions of it from India. I am thinking particularly about the Bhagavadgītā in the Mahābhārata of the island of Bali, which has a very rich musical culture associated with renditions of it.

Scholars date also date the standardization of the Bhagavadgītā as originating anywhere between 600BC and 200AD, so we don't really necessarily know for sure when it became "standardized".

Edit: Apparently the tradition I was thinking of in Bali is actually a parallel of the Rāmāyaṇam, not the Mahābhārata. I could have sworn that I remembered a certain Indonesian island preserving a gamelan that functions as a indigenous mythic parallel to the Mahābhārata, but I'm not so sure now, I'll have to look into my books and see what it is I am half remembering.


That's fair enough. I just wanted to point out that the religious climate into which Shakyamuni Buddha was born doesn't really correspond to what we understand today as "Hinduism."

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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:04 pm

DGA wrote:That's fair enough. I just wanted to point out that the religious climate into which Shakyamuni Buddha was born doesn't really correspond to what we understand today as "Hinduism."
Certainly. And similarly the Brahmannical religious movement that the Buddha preached critically of in the āgama-nikāya literature also was not necessarily the same religious movement(s) that are grouped under the modern-day umbrella of "Hindu". Buddhism and Hinduism have influenced each other back-and-forth via the pursuits of their respective followers' and adherents' quests for truth.

Regarding the OP, what do you mean by "non-random"? Can a "non-random" universe be dependently originated?
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

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KarmaOcean
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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby KarmaOcean » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:23 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Regarding the OP, what do you mean by "non-random"? Can a "non-random" universe be dependently originated?


I kinda mean non-nondeterminism.

Could a "non-random" universe not be dependently originated?

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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby Coëmgenu » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:43 pm

KarmaOcean wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Regarding the OP, what do you mean by "non-random"? Can a "non-random" universe be dependently originated?


I kinda mean non-nondeterminism.

Could a "non-random" universe not be dependently originated?
Well various other religions and other teachings have diverse notions as to the origination of the universe. The Abrahamic tradition believes in a "non-random" universe which arises ex-nihilo ('out-of-nothing') at the will of an uncreated or self-creating being, namely "God".

I am still not sure what you mean by 'non-nondeterminism' though. Do you just mean "kind of determinist and kind of not determinist"?
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

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KarmaOcean
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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby KarmaOcean » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:27 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Well various other religions and other teachings have diverse notions as to the origination of the universe. The Abrahamic tradition believes in a "non-random" universe which arises ex-nihilo ('out-of-nothing') at the will of an uncreated or self-creating being, namely "God".

I am still not sure what you mean by 'non-nondeterminism' though. Do you just mean "kind of determinist and kind of not determinist"?


If the water in the river has ideal karma, although it no karma at all, having become yielding towards the fundamental laws of nature, having become the ideal precursor towards Buddha-hood;

Is supped by a young lady, walking through a Buddha-field, with the sun blazing in a blue sky dotted by white clouds;

at exactly 14:34 PM, and not 14:12 PM, because the young lady's mother thought best to braid her daughter's hair after lunch;

Is the water's determined destiny not subject to the best intentions of the young lady's mother ?

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KarmaOcean
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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby KarmaOcean » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:30 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:I am still not sure what you mean by 'non-nondeterminism' though. Do you just mean "kind of determinist and kind of not determinist"?


I actually mean "not non-determinism".

Do you mean; in part, there might be determinism, and in part, there might be nondeterminism... dependant on each other ?

This reminds me of how some sutra basically says that karmic retribution becomes a cycle where one's freedom is another's bondage and then the relationship becomes reversed, and so on.

I find it very interesting and, frankly, terrifying. I resort to poetry as per previous post.

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Re: Non-random Mother India

Postby KarmaOcean » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:41 pm

In reply to my own question, and to balance out my romantic rambling, I did some reading and found a teaching which is very scientific...

http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama/shurangama37.asp

”Ananda, when that good person, in cultivating samadhi, has put an end to the formations skandha, the subtle, fleeting fluctuations - the deep, imperceptible, pivotal source and the common foundation from which all life in the world springs - are suddenly obliterated. In the submerged network of the retributive karma of the pudgala, the karmic resonances are interrupted. 8:238


Translation of skandha and pudgala:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudgala

"The individual unit of Pudgala is the material from which all is made, smaller than atoms, called a Paramänu, which, by the process of supplementation, can combine to form what can be roughly said is an atom, called a Skandha, of which, a part is known as a Desha (an electron, proton, or neutron)."


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