How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

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KarmaOcean
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by KarmaOcean »

Kenneth Chan wrote:
KarmaOcean wrote: You state that a participant may cause a wave function collapse.
Simply assuming that the participant causes the collapse is prejudicial and unscientific.
KarmaOcean, no one is “simply assuming” that the participant causes the collapse of the wave function. This is what the formulation of quantum mechanics directly indicates.
Kenneth Chan wrote:"The observer is empty of inherent existence because his very existence is dependent upon causes and conditions, is dependent upon his parts, and is dependent upon the mind that imputes the label upon him."
I don't believe you are making a distinction between participant and observer.
I am making that distinction, in my argument, but at this stage it's irrelevant!

So using your own language, where the participant and observer are not different, i.e where there is "the universe which is operated upon" and "the participant who operates", I would like you to tell me when a participant gains autonomy over the universe.

Do you believe it's at the participant's conception ?
Or, could it be prior to that, in the Bardo ?
Or could it be when the participant first breathes oxygen ?

Do you know?
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Malcolm wrote: In Buddhadharma in general, there are only three unconditioned phenomena: space (as absence of obstruction), analytical cessation (nirvana), and nonanalytical cessation (simple absence of a cause).
Are you saying that emptiness is conditioned?
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Malcolm »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote: In Buddhadharma in general, there are only three unconditioned phenomena: space (as absence of obstruction), analytical cessation (nirvana), and nonanalytical cessation (simple absence of a cause).
Are you saying that emptiness is conditioned?
No, I am saying that in general Buddhadharma there are only three unconditioned dharmas. Emptiness is not a separate dharma, like space or the two cessations.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kenneth Chan »

KarmaOcean wrote:
Kenneth Chan wrote:
KarmaOcean wrote: You state that a participant may cause a wave function collapse.
Simply assuming that the participant causes the collapse is prejudicial and unscientific.
KarmaOcean, no one is “simply assuming” that the participant causes the collapse of the wave function. This is what the formulation of quantum mechanics directly indicates.
Kenneth Chan wrote:"The observer is empty of inherent existence because his very existence is dependent upon causes and conditions, is dependent upon his parts, and is dependent upon the mind that imputes the label upon him."
I don't believe you are making a distinction between participant and observer.
I am making that distinction, in my argument, but at this stage it's irrelevant!

So using your own language, where the participant and observer are not different, i.e where there is "the universe which is operated upon" and "the participant who operates", I would like you to tell me when a participant gains autonomy over the universe.

Do you believe it's at the participant's conception ?
Or, could it be prior to that, in the Bardo ?
Or could it be when the participant first breathes oxygen ?

Do you know?
KarmaOcean, it is beginning to appear like you have not even read my paper "A Direct Experiential Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics." No one is forcing you to read it, but if you choose to persistently attempt to criticise it, I think you should at least read it first.

The problem here is that you are insisting that there is already an inherently existing universe "out there," independent of all observers, waiting to be "operated upon." In other words, your statement
KarmaOcean wrote:there is "the universe which is operated upon" and "the participant who operates"
is actually incompatible with the formulation of quantum mechanics.

Please read the section in my paper entitled "Interpreting Quantum Mechanics" and you will see why this assumption of yours is not valid. This is, in fact, the very nature of the mystery in quantum physics. To illustrate the nature of this mystery, here is a passage from that section of my paper (but please do read the entire paper before making any further unwarranted criticisms):

From Section 3. Interpreting Quantum Mechanics

In the words of Niels Bohr:

There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description. It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how Nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about Nature.

We can see that, right from the beginning, Niels Bohr already had the idea that quantum mechanics merely represents our knowledge or information about the external world. “What we can say about Nature,” of course, acknowledges the role of the observer, and basically supports the fact that our science is a science of our experience, and not a science of a universe “out there” independent of us observers.

However, Bohr also emphasizes that there is no actual quantum world. This may appear odd, but the reason why he does that can be found, here, in what Werner Heisenberg writes, concerning the quantum wave function (which he calls the probability function):

… the theoretical interpretation of an experiment requires three distinct steps: (i) the translation of the initial experimental situation into a probability function; (2) the following up of this function in the course of time; (3) the statement of a new measurement to be made of the system, the result of which can then be calculated from the probability function. … The second step cannot be described in terms of the classical concepts; there is no description of what happens to the system between the initial observation and the next measurement. It is only in the third step that we change over again from the ‘possible’ to the ‘actual’.

This is essentially the problem. There appears to be no way of describing what a particle is doing in between the initial measurement and the next measurement. If we measure, say, the position of an electron, we can obtain both its position and the initial quantum wave function (i.e. the probability function) of the electron, and we can obtain the electron’s subsequent position by a further measurement. The problem is that, in between these two measurements, we only have the quantum wave function, which provides us with the probability of where we would find the electron if and only if we make a measurement. But since we are not making a measurement during this interim period, it means that the electron does not even “decide” where it is at this time. Only upon the second measurement does this, in Heisenberg’s words, “change over again from the ‘possible’ to the ‘actual’.” Heisenberg goes on to say:

… there is no way of describing what happens between two consecutive observations. It is of course tempting to say that the electron must have been somewhere between the two observations and that therefore the electron must have described some kind of path or orbit even if it may be impossible to know which path. This would be a reasonable argument in classical physics. But in quantum theory it would be a misuse of the language which … cannot be justified.

(end of quote)

This is essentially why a particle like the electron does not inherently exist on its own right, or from its own side, but is only dependently arisen upon the measurement of a conscious observer. Physicists have had great difficulty in trying to fit this scenario into the philosophical framework of a mind-matter duality, where there is already "the universe which is operated upon" and "the participant who operates."

It is also incompatible with the framework of materialism which insists that consciousness must be derived from matter. Physicists have tried unsuccessfully to force the formulation of quantum mechanics into this framework of materialism for over a century now. Even with all sorts of hypothetical ad hoc additions (including bizarre ones like "infinite alternate universes") to the basic formulation, it just does not fit.

That is why the solution to the mystery of quantum mechanics is to be found in Madhyamika philosophy. Madhyamika philosophy allows us to directly interpret the formulation of quantum mechanics, in a way that is free of conceptual problems, and free of the need for any further ad hoc additions or modifications to the basic formulation.

I should add, here, that Madhyamika philosophy does not require quantum mechanics for its justification. Madhyamika philosophy is already established on the basis of extremely rigorous philosophical and logical analyses. The reverse, however, is more appropriate. It is the formulation of quantum mechanics that requires Madhyamika philosophy in order for it to make sense!
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KarmaOcean
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by KarmaOcean »

Kenneth Chan wrote:This is essentially why a particle like the electron does not inherently exist on its own right, or from its own side, but is only dependently arisen upon the measurement of a conscious observer.
Here you say, as far as I'm concerned, that the wave function collapses upon observation by consciousness.

There's another possibility: That a continual collapse of the wave function, as an ongoing sequence of dependent events, appears as a physical manifestation (the universe); and it's this collapse which gives rise to consciousness.

This dependently arisen "consciousness" is, therefore, actually ignorance. The enlightened statehood, in which all Dharmas originate as empty appearances, is not actually "consciousness". "Cosmic consciousness" is wrong view. The enlightened statehood is actually compassion. The basis of the enlightened state of compassion is Love. The mechanism of Love is that it gives, supplies, a universal experience of ignorance (consciousness) to aspects of the enlightened statehood in which desire to experience an illusion of self-hood is continually recurring.

Therefore consciousness, observation, and science is necessarily subordinate asunder the true nature of the universe.

As far as I know this is the true Buddha Dharma and your continual insistence that the universe is an aspect of consciousness is (i) completely contrary to this Dharma and (ii) directly suggests that countless wonderful Dharmas gifted to us by an enlightened statehood are actually the (somehow) manufactured illusions of ignorance.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kenneth Chan »

KarmaOcean wrote: There's another possibility: That a continual collapse of the wave function, as an ongoing sequence of dependent events, appears as a physical manifestation (the universe); and it's this collapse which gives rise to consciousness.
There is no such thing as "a continual collapse of the wave function" as this would make the Schrodinger Equation invalid and contradict the experimental findings of quantum physics. So your wild speculations are simply wrong.
KarmaOcean wrote: ... your continual insistence that the universe is an aspect of consciousness ...
I have never stated that "the universe is an aspect of consciousness." It is pointless responding to posts of this nature, where you simply invent what other people say.

KarmaOcean, if you want to wildly speculate over things that have nothing to do with the actual quantum physics or Madhyamika philosophy, may I suggest that you start your own thread somewhere else.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kenneth Chan »

Just want to point out that Professor Kip S. Thorne, the physicist who approved my original relativity paper for publication, has just won the Nobel Prize for Physics! So, I can now say that my paper “Time and Space”—which explains for the first time why the speed of light is constant—was approved by a Nobel Laureate.

This paper on relativity is important because it provides further scientific evidence that the Madhyamaka view of reality is correct. Essentially it demonstrates that our science is a science of what we experience, and not a science of a universe “out there” independent of us as conscious observers.

This means that there is concrete scientific evidence that both time and space are empty of inherent existence, since they only arise in dependence upon the mind that apprehends them. Thus, both relativity and quantum mechanics—which together form the foundation of all modern physics—provide clear scientific evidence that Madhyamika Philosophy is correct.

My original paper “Time and Space” was published in the ISPE anthology entitled “Thinking on the Edge,” and the physics consultant for the book was Professor Kip S. Thorne, who approved it for publication. This paper may now be found here:

Time and Space

I have also posted two explanatory articles on the key points of this paper (for those who do not have a physics or mathematics background) here:

Why Relativity Exists

Relativity Proves that Time and Space are Empty of Inherent Existence
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

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For an easier introduction to the key concepts on why the scientific evidence from Relativity and Quantum Mechanics fits perfectly with Madhyamika philosophy, see this recent talk I gave on the topic: “Science and Spirituality Should Not Be Separate.” The talk explains why this is not a materialistic universe, and why mind cannot be purely derived from matter. It points out that Madhyamika philosophy actually solves the central mystery of Quantum Mechanics.

[Note: The talk is meant for those without a physics background. The talk itself is only about an hour long, and viewers can skip the discussion that follows.]
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kai lord »

Ensemble interpretation is my favourite interpretation, following the footsteps of Einstein, Schrödinger and the others as the rest are simply speculations.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kenneth Chan »

Kai lord wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 8:26 am Ensemble interpretation is my favourite interpretation, following the footsteps of Einstein, Schrödinger and the others as the rest are simply speculations.
I guess the ensemble interpretation is ok provided we restrict ourselves to only considering ensembles of similarly prepared systems. However, I fail to see how the ensemble interpretation can adequately account for phenomenon like the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment.

Note what John Gribbin says about the ensemble interpretation: "There are many difficulties with the idea, but the killer blow was struck when individual quantum entities such as photons were observed behaving in experiments in line with the quantum wave function description. The Ensemble interpretation is now only of historical interest."
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

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Kenneth Chan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 9:56 am
Kai lord wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 8:26 am Ensemble interpretation is my favourite interpretation, following the footsteps of Einstein, Schrödinger and the others as the rest are simply speculations.
I guess the ensemble interpretation is ok provided we restrict ourselves to only considering ensembles of similarly prepared systems. However, I fail to see how the ensemble interpretation can adequately account for phenomenon like the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment.

Note what John Gribbin says about the ensemble interpretation: "There are many difficulties with the idea, but the killer blow was struck when individual quantum entities such as photons were observed behaving in experiments in line with the quantum wave function description. The Ensemble interpretation is now only of historical interest."
No interpretations are flawless given the uncertainties and ignorance scientists have about various quantum processes. At least advocators of this interpretation demonstrated their honesty about that and minimize the amount of wild theories and non scientific arguments.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kenneth Chan »

Kai lord wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:31 am No interpretations are flawless given the uncertainties and ignorance scientists have about various quantum processes. At least advocators of this interpretation demonstrated their honesty about that and minimize the amount of wild theories and non scientific arguments.
You are right in saying that none of the current interpretations of quantum mechanics are flawless. That is the reason why there are so many different interpretations. None of them actually fit!

However, if we interpret the Quantum Mechanics formulation according to Madhyamika philosophy, we find that there are no inherent contradictions. And this can be achieved without adding any further ad hoc assumptions to the basic formulation of Quantum Mechanics. In other words, Madhyamika philosophy can explain the mystery of quantum physics.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kai lord »

Kenneth Chan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:54 am However, if we interpret the Quantum Mechanics formulation according to Madhyamika philosophy, we find that there are no inherent contradictions. And this can be achieved without adding any further ad hoc assumptions to the basic formulation of Quantum Mechanics. In other words, Madhyamika philosophy can explain the mystery of quantum physics.
I very much prefer to separate physics and Buddhism. Each works well enough on its own and has different sets of axioms.

Physics is based on a system of skepticism and constantly use physical evidences to improve or update its basic models. While it works towards perfecting its models and search for new and better explanations, physics does not have the final answers and thats what makes it fun (sometimes).

Buddhism works with established truths laid down by the Buddha and instead of searching for new explanations, his disciples work towards understanding his teaching and actualize them through direct experiences.

Thats why I see no reason to combine them.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kenneth Chan »

Kai lord wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 11:05 am I very much prefer to separate physics and Buddhism. Each works well enough on its own and has different sets of axioms.

Physics is based on a system of skepticism and constantly use physical evidences to improve or update its basic models. While it works towards perfecting its models and search for new and better explanations, physics does not have the final answers and thats what makes it fun (sometimes).

Buddhism works with established truths laid down by the Buddha and instead of searching for new explanations, his disciples work towards understanding his teaching and actualize them through direct experiences.

Thats why I see no reason to combine them.
If Madhyamika philosophy is perfectly compatible with Quantum Mechanics and, in fact, explains it, there is every reason to bring them together. Note, however, that Madhyamika philosophy has already been established without the need for quantum physics. The fact that Madhyamika philosophy can actually explain the mystery of quantum physics just reinforces its veracity. Furthermore, it will encourage others to look deeper into Buddhism and into understanding Madhyamika philosophy.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kai lord »

Kenneth Chan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 11:20 am Furthermore, it will encourage others to look deeper into Buddhism and into understanding Madhyamika philosophy.
The first noble truth has clearly demonstrated the suffering nature in our lives and verified by countless of people during the covid era. It along with the rest of the noble truths, are simple and profound enough to draw the attention of interested parties into Buddhism without confusing them. Hence they are much more effective tools.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kenneth Chan »

Kai lord wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 2:52 pm
Kenneth Chan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 11:20 am Furthermore, it will encourage others to look deeper into Buddhism and into understanding Madhyamika philosophy.
The first noble truth has clearly demonstrated the suffering nature in our lives and verified by countless of people during the covid era. It along with the rest of the noble truths, are simple and profound enough to draw the attention of interested parties into Buddhism without confusing them. Hence they are much more effective tools.
Of course, I agree with you with regards to the First Noble Truth.

Unfortunately, a large proportion of the world's population are heavily influenced by what scientists tell them. If the science they encounter is incompatible with the spiritual teachings, that's when confusion arises. I personally know of people who became less spiritual because of what they are being told by the scientists.

Note the title of my talk: "Science and Spirituality Should Not Be Separate". It is precisely the purpose of my talk to show that if scientists would accept what both Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are directly telling us, we would find that they fit perfectly with Madhyamika philosophy. This is how we get rid of the confusion.

Note that even His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, encourages interactions with scientists, and has personally held many discussion meetings with scientists. Both Buddhism and Science are aiming at the truth, and hence, they should be compatible.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

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Kenneth Chan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 4:36 pm
Unfortunately, a large proportion of the world's population are heavily influenced by what scientists tell them. If the science they encounter is incompatible with the spiritual teachings, that's when confusion arises. I personally know of people who became less spiritual because of what they are being told by the scientists.
If thats the case, wouldn't it be way better and easier for you to demonstrate reductive analysis on the aggregate of form using particle physics/standard model or relate the discoveries og modern cosmology with fiery destruction experienced by various world systems during eons of dissolution at the end of intermediate kalpa?

They are way less abstract and simple enough for ordinary people to comprehend
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kenneth Chan »

Kai lord wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:24 pm
Kenneth Chan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 4:36 pm
Unfortunately, a large proportion of the world's population are heavily influenced by what scientists tell them. If the science they encounter is incompatible with the spiritual teachings, that's when confusion arises. I personally know of people who became less spiritual because of what they are being told by the scientists.
If thats the case, wouldn't it be way better and easier for you to demonstrate reductive analysis on the aggregate of form using particle physics/standard model or relate the discoveries og modern cosmology with fiery destruction experienced by various world systems during eons of dissolution at the end of intermediate kalpa?

They are way less abstract and simple enough for ordinary people to comprehend
The path to enlightenment in Mahayana Buddhism requires a realisation of emptiness and Madhyamika philosophy. This is anything but easy, and serious effort is required.

The scientific evidence from Relativity and Quantum Mechanics actually helps in this process of understanding the teachings of emptiness and Madhyamika philosophy. Because of that, it is more useful to demonstrate how Madhyamika philosophy solves the mystery of Quantum Mechanics. I believe this understanding actually helps one to progress along the spiritual path.
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by natusake »

Kenneth Chan wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 4:41 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:24 pm
Kenneth Chan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 4:36 pm
Unfortunately, a large proportion of the world's population are heavily influenced by what scientists tell them. If the science they encounter is incompatible with the spiritual teachings, that's when confusion arises. I personally know of people who became less spiritual because of what they are being told by the scientists.
If thats the case, wouldn't it be way better and easier for you to demonstrate reductive analysis on the aggregate of form using particle physics/standard model or relate the discoveries og modern cosmology with fiery destruction experienced by various world systems during eons of dissolution at the end of intermediate kalpa?

They are way less abstract and simple enough for ordinary people to comprehend
The path to enlightenment in Mahayana Buddhism requires a realisation of emptiness and Madhyamika philosophy. This is anything but easy, and serious effort is required.

The scientific evidence from Relativity and Quantum Mechanics actually helps in this process of understanding the teachings of emptiness and Madhyamika philosophy. Because of that, it is more useful to demonstrate how Madhyamika philosophy solves the mystery of Quantum Mechanics. I believe this understanding actually helps one to progress along the spiritual path.
There are many interpretations of QM. I assume you're thinking about the Copenhagen Interpretation?
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Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics

Post by Kai lord »

Kenneth Chan wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 4:41 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:24 pm
Kenneth Chan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 4:36 pm
Unfortunately, a large proportion of the world's population are heavily influenced by what scientists tell them. If the science they encounter is incompatible with the spiritual teachings, that's when confusion arises. I personally know of people who became less spiritual because of what they are being told by the scientists.
If thats the case, wouldn't it be way better and easier for you to demonstrate reductive analysis on the aggregate of form using particle physics/standard model or relate the discoveries og modern cosmology with fiery destruction experienced by various world systems during eons of dissolution at the end of intermediate kalpa?

They are way less abstract and simple enough for ordinary people to comprehend
The path to enlightenment in Mahayana Buddhism requires a realisation of emptiness and Madhyamika philosophy. This is anything but easy, and serious effort is required.
Yes but if your main objective is to draw new people into Buddhism, its better to start with Four Noble Truths, three realms, reductionist approach towards the five aggregates, etc. Telling newcomers to dive straight into the Five paths, Sunyata, six perfections, etc, for the sake of altruistic intention for all sentinel beings, is not going to work well.

Renunciation, anatta and dependent origination are difficult topics for them. And if you bring in Quantum and relativity, even less people will be drawn to it because like it or not, most people are just not so intellectually inclined.
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