The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

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Wayfarer
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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:29 pm

That paper is an eye-opener. It seems a cult or new religious movement to me.
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Tolya M
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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Tolya M » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:11 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Currently, here in Thailand, the authorities have been chasing the abbot for months on embezzlement, money laundering, and receiving stolen property. There is a nation-wide hunt for him. This is part of a highly politicized situation involving Wat Dhammakaya and their position in both Buddhist and government circles.
Sad to hear such news...Vijja Dhammakaya have many interesting features as subtle rupa in arupa loka, their own interpretation of tilakkhana, true self\atta-lakkhana from Patisambhidamagga of Sariputta, etc... Despite their footnotes to the mahayana sastras and sutras, they are certainly only savakas and this follows from their Path and result.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Anonymous X » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:27 am

Tolya M wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Currently, here in Thailand, the authorities have been chasing the abbot for months on embezzlement, money laundering, and receiving stolen property. There is a nation-wide hunt for him. This is part of a highly politicized situation involving Wat Dhammakaya and their position in both Buddhist and government circles.
Sad to hear such news...Vijja Dhammakaya have many interesting features as subtle rupa in arupa loka, their own interpretation of tilakkhana, true self\atta-lakkhana from Patisambhidamagga of Sariputta, etc... Despite their footnotes to the mahayana sastras and sutras, they are certainly only savakas and this follows from their Path and result.
These kinds of situations are not uncommon. State sponsored religion is a dangerous thing. The saving grace here is the forest tradition, revived by Ajaan Mun and Maha Bua in the 20th century.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by jmlee369 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:33 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:14 pm
The next section: 如大海之水, 牛跡所不容, 如是佛智海, 餘人不能持。is giving me a lot of trouble. It seems that if there is to be any instruction of detail to be found in this text, it is here, as there is a simile involving the ocean, a bull or ox, and the Buddha's wisdom, as well as an instruction to not grasp, it seems, does anyone have any ideas as to the end of this gāthā while I try to piece together what it could mean?
Old post I know, but just my two cents:

Just as an ox's hoofprint cannot easily contain
The waters of the great ocean
So too, other people cannot uphold
the ocean of the Buddha's wisdom.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:22 pm

jmlee369 wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:33 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:14 pm
The next section: 如大海之水, 牛跡所不容, 如是佛智海, 餘人不能持。is giving me a lot of trouble. It seems that if there is to be any instruction of detail to be found in this text, it is here, as there is a simile involving the ocean, a bull or ox, and the Buddha's wisdom, as well as an instruction to not grasp, it seems, does anyone have any ideas as to the end of this gāthā while I try to piece together what it could mean?
Old post I know, but just my two cents:

Just as an ox's hoofprint cannot easily contain
The waters of the great ocean
So too, other people cannot uphold
the ocean of the Buddha's wisdom.
Thank you! This is an older project for me, but I do plan to resurrect it eventually, as my Chinese has improved since I first started this inquiry.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:13 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:14 pm
___________
SA 604 (no parallel): this is a very sprawling āgama full of verse-sections. Translating this whole thing would be quite beyond me at the moment, especially given that it lacks parallels!

It starts pretty standard:
如是我聞:
Like this I heard:

一時,佛住王舍城迦蘭陀竹園。
One time, Buddha dwelt [in] Rājagṛha [at] Karanda Venuvana.

爾時,世尊晨朝著衣持鉢,共諸比丘僧入城乞食,如偈所說:
At that time, [the] Bhagavān [in the?] early morning grasped [his] robe [and] held [his] alms-bowl, altogether [the] myriad monk saṃgha entered [the] city [to] beg [for] food, thus [this] gāthā's meaning (?) [was] explained:
The āgama appears, me not having looked through it exhaustively, to be a series of gāthā and verses in its entirety, given and spoken by different people. The specific gāthā that interests us is here, please forgive my tentativeness here, I promise my contributions will have more merit when there is a parallel available to use as a guide:
「時,諸臣白王言:『何故於此布施供養皆悉勝前?』
Then, the statesman (it seems to indicate this statesman to be Śuddhodana??? This might be an oddity of one of the resources I consulted) said: "What reason, in this way, to give (dāna) support more than before?"
_Attempted clarification: Then, the statesman said "Why donate (more?)?"_

王曰:『聽吾所說心中所以:
The King said: "Listen to what I say, [what I have?] in mind thus:

『如來之體身, 法身性清淨,
[The] Tathāgata's substantial body (rūpakāya?), the dharmakāya[:] characterized [as?] calm [and] peaceful,
Attempted clarification: The Tathāgata's rūpakāya (and?) dharmakāya (are?) characterized as calm and peaceful,

彼悉能奉持, 是故供養勝。
that knowledge enables(?) practice(?), therefore [perform?] pūjana (or dāna) more.

法燈常存 世, 滅此愚癡冥,
Dharma lamp/light constantly endures, destroy this ignorance (moha) profound (or: "destroy this hell of profound ignorance"?),

皆由從彼來, 是故供養勝。
[still looking at this section, difficult vocabulary], therefore [perform?] pūjana (or dāna) more.


The next section: 如大海之水, 牛跡所不容, 如是佛智海, 餘人不能持。is giving me a lot of trouble. It seems that if there is to be any instruction of detail to be found in this text, it is here, as there is a simile involving the ocean, a bull or ox, and the Buddha's wisdom, as well as an instruction to not grasp, it seems, does anyone have any ideas as to the end of this gāthā while I try to piece together what it could mean?


The first correction is that this above is not an EBT. It is a Chinese translation of the ~2nd-15th century Aśokāvadāna that the Taishō scholars, based on historical precedent, filed with the Sarvāstivāda saṃyuktāgama sūtrāṇi.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by ItsRaining » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:16 am

Tolya M wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:11 pm
Anonymous X wrote:
Currently, here in Thailand, the authorities have been chasing the abbot for months on embezzlement, money laundering, and receiving stolen property. There is a nation-wide hunt for him. This is part of a highly politicized situation involving Wat Dhammakaya and their position in both Buddhist and government circles.
Sad to hear such news...Vijja Dhammakaya have many interesting features as subtle rupa in arupa loka, their own interpretation of tilakkhana, true self\atta-lakkhana from Patisambhidamagga of Sariputta, etc... Despite their footnotes to the mahayana sastras and sutras, they are certainly only savakas and this follows from their Path and result.
I think there are other Dhammakaya movement temples and groups not affiliated with Vijja Dhammakaya. It seems the Vijja Dhammakaya is just one group albeit the most popular that stemmed from this monk's teachings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luang_Pu_Sodh_Candasaro

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:27 am

ItsRaining wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:16 am
Tolya M wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:11 pm
Anonymous X wrote:
Currently, here in Thailand, the authorities have been chasing the abbot for months on embezzlement, money laundering, and receiving stolen property. There is a nation-wide hunt for him. This is part of a highly politicized situation involving Wat Dhammakaya and their position in both Buddhist and government circles.
Sad to hear such news...Vijja Dhammakaya have many interesting features as subtle rupa in arupa loka, their own interpretation of tilakkhana, true self\atta-lakkhana from Patisambhidamagga of Sariputta, etc... Despite their footnotes to the mahayana sastras and sutras, they are certainly only savakas and this follows from their Path and result.
I think there are other Dhammakaya movement temples and groups not affiliated with Vijja Dhammakaya. It seems the Vijja Dhammakaya is just one group albeit the most popular that stemmed from this monk's teachings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luang_Pu_Sodh_Candasaro
IMO it all depends on whether or not the other temples also substantiate these idiosyncratic esoteric teachings that Phra Chaiboon Dhammajayo alleges Phra Mongkolthepmuni taught. I am sure the matter would be easy to find out, but, alas, I have no access to the Thai language.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:49 pm

C,
Can you describe what the controversy is that you were addressing with the original posts?
And in a few short sentence summarize what your contributions to the discussion seek to establish?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:26 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:49 pm
C,
Can you describe what the controversy is that you were addressing with the original posts?
And in a few short sentence summarize what your contributions to the discussion seek to establish?
Well, a few scholars in the field of EBT studies do not think it is necessary to note when the Sinitic texts differ from the Indic texts, and edit these texts to correspond to the Indic texts as it suits them: without informing readers and changing the Chinese characters themselves.

It happens a number of times in the work I cited above. Which uses extensive quotations of Chinese characters with English below them, making it seem like what is being presented is the original Chinese text.

On terms of "adding anything to the field", I doubt I could do that. This is just a sharing of my own personal explorations.

For instance, my Chinese, though better now than it was when I started the project, is hardly advanced enough to be engaging in this kind of work on a professional level.

Here, to recap, relating specifically to the controversy brought up in the second post:

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:22 pm
There is a dominant belief in EBT studies, particularly championed by Choong Mun-keat (see Choong Mun-keat's The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, page 153 for an example of EBT academics altering Buddhavacana**** based on the SF hypothesis I am about to explain),

[...]

****I can actually understand why this sort of practice can be reasonable and necessary in preserving Dharma texts, as indeed spelling mistakes and errors of manuscript transmission do, on occasions, arise. However, when this is done, a note should be make of it, especially when the allegations of manuscript error are as tentative as the SF hypothesis.

Suffice to say, although it is certainly a possibility, it is a huge and unscholarly assumption, IMO.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:52 pm

So what you're saying is that instances of 法身 that appear in the Chinese translation of the Agama are revised by editors to something else based on versions in other languages?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:52 pm
So what you're saying is that instances of 法身 that appear in the Chinese translation of the Agama are revised by editors to something else based on versions in other languages?
No, the one that I linked to was 空 > 定 in the Choong text reproducing SA 296 (āgama-parallel to the Paccayasutta). But the basis for that correction is something that I named the SF hypothesis.

The Sarvāstivāda saṃyuktāgama that Ven Guṇabhadra translated was retrieved from Sri Lanka by Ven Fǎxiǎn from Abhyagrihivihāra. It seems that most scholars working in the EBT field believe that these Sanskrit āgama fragments are the very same source text that was translated by Ven Guṇabhadra and retrieved by Ven Fǎxiǎn. Because they claim to have the source text, anomalous features of the Chinese recensions can be written away as inserted, knowingly or accidentally, by the Mahāyānist translators. I think that that assumption is unscholarly.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:09 pm

OK. I guess I'm totally confused because I'm not familiar with the underlying controversy. What does dharmakaya have to do with all this?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:12 pm

I've attached a photo of the relevant page, in full, from the text, if you are interested.

I don't claim to be blowing a fish out of the water with a shotgun, I just noticed some "fishy business" and wrote a small personal report on the smell.

This is the source text he is working with. As you will see, he changes 空 (emptiness) to 定 (certainty) to comply with the Pāli (vs the SF fragments I mentioned earlier).

In no Chinese recension of the Paccayasutta will you see 定. It is always 空. But here we have 定.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2017-11-10 at 2.07.21 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-11-10 at 2.07.21 PM.png (383.33 KiB) Viewed 314 times
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:13 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:09 pm
OK. I guess I'm totally confused because I'm not familiar with the underlying controversy. What does dharmakaya have to do with all this?
Well, just like when the scholar cited in the second post on this thread encounters "dharmadhātu" and edits it out of the Chinese Paccayasutta, the same is done with dharmakāya when it pops up in these Chinese texts.

The operative idea being that 'emptiness' 'dharmadhātu' and 'dharmakāya' can't be showing up in EBTs.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:26 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:13 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:09 pm
OK. I guess I'm totally confused because I'm not familiar with the underlying controversy. What does dharmakaya have to do with all this?
Well, just like when the scholar cited in the second post on this thread encounters "dharmadhātu" and edits it out of the Chinese Paccayasutta, the same is done with dharmakāya when it pops up in these Chinese texts.
I see. Gotcha.

Chinese is such a different written language than any phonetic written language. It lends itself to metaphorical thought processes - more than other types of languages. One of my favorite examples, though totally chauvinistic, are combinations of the character for "woman" 女. Two women means "quarrel" 奻 and three 姦 means wicked, mischief, seduce, rape.

Kumarajiva's translations were celebrated because he employed this implicit aspect of the Chinese written language to convey the meaning of the Buddhist texts - much more so than translators who stuck to more literal modes.

Anyway, interesting observations.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:53 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:26 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:13 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:09 pm
OK. I guess I'm totally confused because I'm not familiar with the underlying controversy. What does dharmakaya have to do with all this?
Well, just like when the scholar cited in the second post on this thread encounters "dharmadhātu" and edits it out of the Chinese Paccayasutta, the same is done with dharmakāya when it pops up in these Chinese texts.
I see. Gotcha.

Chinese is such a different written language than any phonetic written language. It lends itself to metaphorical thought processes - more than other types of languages. One of my favorite examples, though totally chauvinistic, are combinations of the character for "woman" 女. Two women means "quarrel" 奻 and three 姦 means wicked, mischief, seduce, rape.

Kumarajiva's translations were celebrated because he employed this implicit aspect of the Chinese written language to convey the meaning of the Buddhist texts - much more so than translators who stuck to more literal modes.

Anyway, interesting observations.
At the risk of boring you, in case you are interested further.

This is a tangent, but I figure, this is my thread, so I am allowed.

The "EBT orthodox" rendering of the Paccayasutta is quite different from what the Chinese preserves of the Sarvāstivāda original.

I used to have a variation of this quotation as my signature here in DharmaWheel. The graph on the uploaded picture from earlier gives an account of one of the definitive statements of the śrāvaka vehicle concerning pratītyasamutpāda in Pāli & Sarvāstivāda recensions. Using the structuring of his phrases from that graph, and substituting "dharma" for "phenomenon", we can divine the following statement, as an account of the Buddha's exposition on the conditioned according to the Sarvāstivāda, in the mind of an EBT enthusiast informed only by Choong's text:
Whether Tathāgatāni arise in the world or not, these dharmāḥ are persistence, the constancy/status of dharmāḥ, the nature of dharmāḥ. These dharmāḥ are the constancy of dharmāḥ, the certainty of dharmāḥ, suchness of dharmāḥ, no departure from the true, no difference from the true, actuality, truth, reality, non-confusion.
Looking at the passage, and reading in the instance of dharmadhātu and 空 that was changed to 定, and adapting the above phrasing as to that it corresponds directly with the Chinese, you get something like this, IMO and as far as my Chinese can take me, of course, with the assistance of other translations to look at:
若佛出世,若未出世,此法常住,法住法界,彼如來自覺知,成等正覺,
If a Buddha is born, if one is not born, these dharmāḥ are eternal (常住, śāśvata), the dharmāṇām (dharmas', gen. pl.) pratiṣṭhita is dharmadhātu (法界), the Tathāgatāni of their own awakening know this, attaining samyaksaṃbodhi,

為人演說,開示顯發,謂緣生故,有老、病、死、憂、悲、惱、苦。
for humanity conduct speeches, opening revealing demonstrating and sending it forth, speaking of the predestined development of causality, becoming[,] aging, sickening, dying, worrying, grieving, becoming-angry, and suffering.

此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。
These manifold myriad dharmāḥ, the dharmāṇām pratiṣṭhitā, the dharmāṇām śūnyatā (emptiness), the dharmāṇām sthititā (permanence), the dharmāṇām tathātā (suchness), these dharmāḥ do not depart from thusness, these dharmāḥ are not other than thusness, judged as truly real, without delusion.
Emptiness coterminous with dependent origination at the level of the dispensation to the śrāvakāḥ. Absent in the Pāli Canon. Cool stuff.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:29 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:53 pm
自覺
Also, original enlightenment?
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

crazy-man
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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by crazy-man » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:11 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:00 am
Malmcolm wrote:Devadatta is a perfect example of schism that happens during the life of the Buddha.
Indeed, and what were among the chief things he did, aside from attempted assassination of the Buddha? I believe he tried to change monastic practice of the time, did he not?
In the Vibhan̄ga, Saṃghādisesa 10, Devadatta ask the Buddha to institute five dhuta practices that shall be mandatory on all his renunciants:
that monks should dwell all their lives in the forest,
that they should accept no invitations to meals, but live entirely on alms obtained by begging,
that they should wear only robes made of discarded rags and accept no robes from the laity,
that they should dwell at the foot of a tree and not under a roof,
that they should abstain completely from fish and flesh.
The Buddha's reply was that those who felt so inclined could follow these rules – except that of sleeping under a tree during the rainy season – but he refused to make the rules obligatory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta
www.leighb.com/Devadatta.pdf

ItsRaining
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Re: The Dharmakāya in Early Buddhist Texts

Post by ItsRaining » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:33 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:29 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:53 pm
自覺
Also, original enlightenment?
Nah I think that part of the translation is actually accurate "the Tathāgatāni of their own awakening know this" or "The Tathagata themselves know realise this".

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