original buddhism

[liuzg150181]

Sorry to interrupt. I have not been following along except the last page.

Is this a technical term?

The reason I ask is that Zhiyi identifies "Common Teaching" to refer to some forms of Mahayana that I suppose could be identified as a path of renunciation. He also identifies two other Mahayana teachings that do not involve renunciation. That's irrelevant to my question, though.

In contrast to uncommon Mahayana,a.k.a Vajrayana?

I should have been more clear - common, in the sense of 'shared'. Hinayana and Common Teaching Mahayana both seek resolution in the Absolute, ie. anatman and sunyata, respectively. Separate and Perfect Teaching Mahayana do not - the former having the ideal of the bodhisattva who never abandons beings and the latter finding spontaneous perfection in neither abandoning nor not abandoning, etc. The latter two are still Mahayanateachings, with the Perfect Path considered the Original Gate of Ekayana.

While there are much better practitioners(more experienced and knowledge) to answer the question,afaik by 'uncommon' it refers to the means and method to speed up the process to Buddhahood,otherwise the commonalities are bodhicitta shared with Mahayana and renounciation of samsara and refuge that are common to all 'vehicles' so to speak.

Also,for what I understand,Hinayana(mainly in modern form of Theravada) only strifes to achieve anatta,whereas Mahayana(both common and uncommon) strifes to also achieve sunyata in addition to anatta.

[Tuybachau]

Relying on the definitive meaning in no way contradicts the path of renunciation which is clearly taught as the principle expedient means in Mahāyāna. To insist that it does means abandoning the relative in favor of the ultimate. Buddha taught two truths; the one of worldly convention, and the ultimate truth. These two truths are not in contradiction.

- The expedient are expedient as they are employed to lead sentient beings to the realization of the definitive teaching. Things are not expediently used when they are confused with the definitive. 
- Mahayana teaches the definitive meaning. Bodhisattvas who rely on the definitive meaning can use whatever expedient means they see fit: renunciation, appropriation, abandonment, attainment..

Someone who does not understand that common Mahāyāna is a path of renunciation does not understand the meaning of the two truths.

- Mahayana is not a path of renunciation. Mahayana, the great vehicle, is the path of bodhisattvas who rely on the definitive teaching and employ various expedient means: renunciation, appropriation, abandonment, attainment.. to lead an infinite number of sentient beings to cessation.

[ThreeVows]

Mahayana is not a path of renunciation. Mahayana, the great vehicle, is the path of bodhisattvas who rely on the definitive teaching and employ various expedient means: renunciation, appropriation, abandonment, attainment.. to lead an infinite number of sentient beings to cessation.

I think the problem here is that you're basically talking about the path of the Bodhisattvas on the Bhumis and Malcolm is talking about what he's calling 'common Mahayana', which is basically one vehicle that can lead to awakening among others. This categorization I think is often employed in the 9 yana framework, though that is probably not the only place it's employed.

IMO, on the Bhumis, Bodhisattvas employ all vehicles ultimately and realize all truths. As I recall, this is discussed somewhat with terms like integrated and unintegrated doctrines.

The discussion here seems to be almost purely semantic and centered around the term 'common Mahayana', which in my opinion does somewhat of a disservice to the Mahayana because the Mahayana explicitly discusses the Bhumis, and I think within the Bhumis, all of this other stuff is there.

[Malcolm]

[

- The expedient are expedient as they are employed to lead sentient beings to the realization of the definitive teaching. Things are not expediently used when they are confused with the definitive. 

Expedient means are also used by bodhisattvas for their own training, for example, śilapāramita, the perfection of discipline which necessarily involves renunciation such as abandoning killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct and intoxication. A bodhisattva may engage in any of those five misdeeds for the benefit of others, but not for his or her own benefit. Therefore, the bodhisattva path is a renunciate path in general.

- Mahayana teaches the definitive meaning. Bodhisattvas who rely on the definitive meaning can use whatever expedient means they see fit: renunciation, appropriation, abandonment, attainment..

Mahāyāna indeed has both provisional teachings and definitive teachings. For example, the Avatamska teaches the definitive teachings on practicing the path, which involve renunciation, etc., included in the seven limbs.

For their own practice of the path, bodhisattvas are obliged to abandon the ten nonvirtuous deeds, eating meat and so on. Therefore, the bodhisattva path is a renunciate path in general.

[Virgo]

For their own practice of the path, bodhisattvas are obliged to abandon the ten nonvirtuous deeds, eating meat and so on. Therefore, the bodhisattva path is a renunciate path in general.

LOL, this person is still arguing with you?

Tuybachau, relax. You are wrong about this and that is OKAY... it's okay, man, just let it go.

Kevin

[Queequeg]

He doesn't believe in renunciation?

Whakka whakka!

[Tuybachau]

Expedient means are also used by bodhisattvas for their own training, for example, śilapāramita, the perfection of discipline which necessarily involves renunciation such as abandoning killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct and intoxication. 

A bodhisattva may engage in any of those five misdeeds for the benefit of others, but not for his or her own benefit. Therefore, the bodhisattva path is a renunciate path in general.

- The monastic codes, vinaya, should not be confused with the definitive teaching on which the bodhisattvas rely. Bodhisattvas can choose to assume any role such as that of a fully ordained, a sramana, who keeps 250 precepts or an apprentice, a samanera, 10 precepts, or an upasaka 5, or someone like Devadata, or a prostitute. The path of a bodhisattva is not defined by one or more of the expedient means that bodhisattva employs but:

"
Wisdom is the bodhisattva's mother,
expedient means his father;
of those who guide and teach all beings,
there are none not born of these.
"
From Chapter 8 THE BUDDHA WAY of the Vimalakirti Sutra

Mahāyāna indeed has both provisional teachings and definitive teachings. For example, the Avatamska teaches the definitive teachings on practicing the path, which involve renunciation, etc., included in the seven limbs.

For their own practice of the path, bodhisattvas are obliged to abandon the ten nonvirtuous deeds, eating meat and so on. Therefore, the bodhisattva path is a renunciate path in general.

- For his/her own practice of the path, a bodhisattva relies on the definitive teaching to employ one or more of the expedient means. In the definitive teaching:

"
Here, Sariputra, a Bodhisattva, a great being, having stood in the perfection of wisdom, by way of not taking his stand on it, should perfect the perfection of giving, by way of seeing that no renunciation has taken place, since gift, giver, and recipient have not been apprehended.  He should perfect himself in the perfection of morality, through not transgressing into either offence or non-offence.    He should perfect the perfection of patience and remain imperturbable.  He should perfect the perfection of vigour, and remain indefatigable in his physical and mental vigour.  He should perfect the perfection of meditation, and derive no enjoyment (from transic meditation).  He should perfect the perfection of wisdom, on account of the fact that he apprehends neither wisdom nor stupidity.
"
From Chapter 2 THE THOUGHT OF ENLIGHTENMENT of The Large Sutra on Perfect Wisdom

"
Subhuti : If, O Lord, form should be seen as empty of form, etc. to: enlightenment as empty of enlightenment, how can of a Bodhisattva who courses in perfect wisdom the coursing take place?
The Lord : A noncoursing is the bodhisattva’s coursing in perfect wisdom. 
Subhuti : For what reason? 
The Lord : Because no perfect wisdom can be apprehended, no Bodhisattva, no coursing, no one who courses, nor that whereby or wherein he courses.  It is thus that a Bodhisattva’s coursing in perfect wisdom is a noncoursing in which all these discoursings are not apprehended.
"
From Chapter 63 MANY QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE DUALITY OF DHARMAS of The Large Sutra on Perfect Wisdom


- As I said before, those who confuse worldly things with bodhisattvas' wisdom and practice do not know this path.

[Malcolm]

Expedient means are also used by bodhisattvas for their own training, for example, śilapāramita, the perfection of discipline which necessarily involves renunciation such as abandoning killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct and intoxication. 

A bodhisattva may engage in any of those five misdeeds for the benefit of others, but not for his or her own benefit. Therefore, the bodhisattva path is a renunciate path in general.

- The monastic codes, vinaya, should not be confused with the definitive teaching on which the bodhisattvas rely. Bodhisattvas can choose to assume any role such as that of a fully ordained, a sramana, who keeps 250 precepts or an apprentice, a samanera, 10 precepts, or an upasaka 5, or someone like Devadata, or a prostitute. The path of a bodhisattva is not defined by one or more of the expedient means that bodhisattva employs but:

"
Wisdom is the bodhisattva's mother,
expedient means his father;
of those who guide and teach all beings,
there are none not born of these.
"
From Chapter 8 THE BUDDHA WAY of the Vimalakirti Sutra

Mahāyāna indeed has both provisional teachings and definitive teachings. For example, the Avatamska teaches the definitive teachings on practicing the path, which involve renunciation, etc., included in the seven limbs.

For their own practice of the path, bodhisattvas are obliged to abandon the ten nonvirtuous deeds, eating meat and so on. Therefore, the bodhisattva path is a renunciate path in general.

- For his/her own practice of the path, a bodhisattva relies on the definitive teaching to employ one or more of the expedient means. In the definitive teaching:

"
Here, Sariputra, a Bodhisattva, a great being, having stood in the perfection of wisdom, by way of not taking his stand on it, should perfect the perfection of giving, by way of seeing that no renunciation has taken place, since gift, giver, and recipient have not been apprehended.  He should perfect himself in the perfection of morality, through not transgressing into either offence or non-offence.    He should perfect the perfection of patience and remain imperturbable.  He should perfect the perfection of vigour, and remain indefatigable in his physical and mental vigour.  He should perfect the perfection of meditation, and derive no enjoyment (from transic meditation).  He should perfect the perfection of wisdom, on account of the fact that he apprehends neither wisdom nor stupidity.
"
From Chapter 2 THE THOUGHT OF ENLIGHTENMENT of The Large Sutra on Perfect Wisdom

"
Subhuti : If, O Lord, form should be seen as empty of form, etc. to: enlightenment as empty of enlightenment, how can of a Bodhisattva who courses in perfect wisdom the coursing take place?
The Lord : A noncoursing is the bodhisattva’s coursing in perfect wisdom. 
Subhuti : For what reason? 
The Lord : Because no perfect wisdom can be apprehended, no Bodhisattva, no coursing, no one who courses, nor that whereby or wherein he courses.  It is thus that a Bodhisattva’s coursing in perfect wisdom is a noncoursing in which all these discoursings are not apprehended.
"
From Chapter 63 MANY QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE DUALITY OF DHARMAS of The Large Sutra on Perfect Wisdom


- As I said before, those who confuse worldly things with bodhisattvas' wisdom and practice do not know this path.

And I as said before, those who do not understand that bodhisattvas rely on the two truths, and not just one, do not understand Mahāyāna. You keep on asserting there is no use for the relative things of the path for a bodhisattva themselves.

[Nyedrag Yeshe]

There is a key point missing in some people's understanding of the different views on renunciation between different Yanas. Different from Vajrayana, common Mahayana simple lacks pure vision and divine pride. Without which, is just not possible to attain the path's fruition without inner or outer renunciation (Monkhood), or both!

[Tuybachau]

Expedient means are also used by bodhisattvas for their own training, for example, śilapāramita, the perfection of discipline which necessarily involves renunciation such as abandoning killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct and intoxication. 

A bodhisattva may engage in any of those five misdeeds for the benefit of others, but not for his or her own benefit. Therefore, the bodhisattva path is a renunciate path in general.

- The monastic codes, vinaya, should not be confused with the definitive teaching on which the bodhisattvas rely. Bodhisattvas can choose to assume any role such as that of a fully ordained, a sramana, who keeps 250 precepts or an apprentice, a samanera, 10 precepts, or an upasaka 5, or someone like Devadata, or a prostitute. The path of a bodhisattva is not defined by one or more of the expedient means that bodhisattva employs but:

"
Wisdom is the bodhisattva's mother,
expedient means his father;
of those who guide and teach all beings,
there are none not born of these.
"
From Chapter 8 THE BUDDHA WAY of the Vimalakirti Sutra

Mahāyāna indeed has both provisional teachings and definitive teachings. For example, the Avatamska teaches the definitive teachings on practicing the path, which involve renunciation, etc., included in the seven limbs.

For their own practice of the path, bodhisattvas are obliged to abandon the ten nonvirtuous deeds, eating meat and so on. Therefore, the bodhisattva path is a renunciate path in general.

- For his/her own practice of the path, a bodhisattva relies on the definitive teaching to employ one or more of the expedient means. In the definitive teaching:

"
Here, Sariputra, a Bodhisattva, a great being, having stood in the perfection of wisdom, by way of not taking his stand on it, should perfect the perfection of giving, by way of seeing that no renunciation has taken place, since gift, giver, and recipient have not been apprehended.  He should perfect himself in the perfection of morality, through not transgressing into either offence or non-offence.    He should perfect the perfection of patience and remain imperturbable.  He should perfect the perfection of vigour, and remain indefatigable in his physical and mental vigour.  He should perfect the perfection of meditation, and derive no enjoyment (from transic meditation).  He should perfect the perfection of wisdom, on account of the fact that he apprehends neither wisdom nor stupidity.
"
From Chapter 2 THE THOUGHT OF ENLIGHTENMENT of The Large Sutra on Perfect Wisdom

"
Subhuti : If, O Lord, form should be seen as empty of form, etc. to: enlightenment as empty of enlightenment, how can of a Bodhisattva who courses in perfect wisdom the coursing take place?
The Lord : A noncoursing is the bodhisattva’s coursing in perfect wisdom. 
Subhuti : For what reason? 
The Lord : Because no perfect wisdom can be apprehended, no Bodhisattva, no coursing, no one who courses, nor that whereby or wherein he courses.  It is thus that a Bodhisattva’s coursing in perfect wisdom is a noncoursing in which all these discoursings are not apprehended.
"
From Chapter 63 MANY QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE DUALITY OF DHARMAS of The Large Sutra on Perfect Wisdom


- As I said before, those who confuse worldly things with bodhisattvas' wisdom and practice do not know this path.

And I as said before, those who do not understand that bodhisattvas rely on the two truths, and not just one, do not understand Mahāyāna. You keep on asserting there is no use for the relative things of the path for a bodhisattva themselves.

You keep on asserting that a bodhisattva's path is bounded by renunciation, one of his/her limitless expedient means. You refuse to learn the teaching of Mahayana that the path of bodhisattvas requires both wisdom and compassion, the definitive meaning to be relied on and the provisional meanings to be used as expedient means. 
One who aspires to the Mahayana path needs to understand that any relative thing can be the expression of a bodhisattva's wisdom and compassion and the fact that relative things always be there in the eyes of sentient beings.

[Anonymous X]

There is a key point missing in some people's understanding of the different views on renunciation between different Yanas. Different from Vajrayana, common Mahayana simple lacks pure vision and divine pride. Without which, is just not possible to attain the path's fruition without inner or outer renunciation (Monkhood), or both!

I guess this must be another sectarian divide that resides in the mind of the poster. Some would say this is said from an elitist point of view. How can any point of view be truth?

[Malcolm]

You keep on asserting that a bodhisattva's path is bounded by renunciation...

The basis of the bodhisattva path is renunciation, which is obvious even to beginners, let alone scholars.

[Tuybachau]

The basis of the bodhisattva path is renunciation, which is obvious even to beginners, let alone scholars.

The basis of the bodhisattva path is the Buddha Nature which has nothing to do with renunciation or/and appropriation... That is what the definitive teaching is about and why it is to be relied on.

[Caoimhghín]

The basis of the bodhisattva path is renunciation, which is obvious even to beginners, let alone scholars.

The basis of the bodhisattva path is the Buddha Nature which has nothing to do with renunciation or/and appropriation... That is what the definitive teaching is about and why it is to be relied on.

But bodhisattvayāna isn't the same thing as Buddha-nature, regardless of if it is "based" on it or not, yes? What matters is what bodhisattvayāna "is" (i.e. what is the practice of Bodhisattvayāna is), not what it is predicated on. What are the actual practices of Bodhisattvayāna? That is where you find out if it is or is not a path of renunciation, not from its theory or its metaphysics.

IMO obv.

As a point a few sects of Mahāyāna Buddhism do appear to be (almost?) completely belief/faith based. Do these outlier sects qualify as also being based in renunciation?

[Grigoris]

phpBB [video]

[Grigoris]

Though you may prefer the Frank Sinatra-Ginger Rogers version...

phpBB [video]

[Tuybachau]

What are the actual practices of Bodhisattvayāna? That is where you find out if it is or is not a path of renunciation, not from its theory or its metaphysics.

- The sutras do not teach theories and metaphysics. Those who do not have adequate roots of goodness do not believe in and/or do not understand and/or do not follow them but come up with idle theories and metaphysics.
- If you aspire to the path of bodhisattvas, practice to rely on the definitive teaching. You have the Buddha nature, realize it.

[Caoimhghín]

What are the actual practices of Bodhisattvayāna? That is where you find out if it is or is not a path of renunciation, not from its theory or its metaphysics.

- The sutras do not teach theories and metaphysics.

Come again? How do they not do this?

[Caoimhghín]

What are the actual practices of Bodhisattvayāna? That is where you find out if it is or is not a path of renunciation, not from its theory or its metaphysics.

- The sutras do not teach theories and metaphysics.

Come again? How do they not do this?

I see. You have redefined my "theory" to your "theories" thinking they refer to the same usage of the word "theory".

Theory: a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject.

This is the operative meaning intended by my usage of the singular rather than plural.

Similarly,

Metaphysics: the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.

[Tuybachau]

Come again? How do they not do this?

I see. You have redefined my "theory" to your "theories" thinking they refer to the same usage of the word "theory".

Theory: a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject.

This is the operative meaning intended by my usage of the singular rather than plural.

- The sutras do not teach theorems and views but do teach non attachment to propositions and views.

Similarly, 

Metaphysics: the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.

- The sutras do not teach principles, concepts.. but do teach non establishment of and non attachment to principles, concepts..