mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

A forum for those wishing to discuss Buddhist history and teachings in the Western academic manner, referencing appropriate sources.
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odysseus
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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by odysseus » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:39 pm

Of course mindfulness could be an aid in healing a wound after battle. But to use it to make a better marksman or such, is foolish and will never work out the way they think.
Let a man not seek for the respect of his peers, but let him seek wisdom.

-- Dhammapada

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:43 am

odysseus wrote:Of course mindfulness could be an aid in healing a wound after battle. But to use it to make a better marksman or such, is foolish and will never work out the way they think.

Maybe not karmically in the long term, but in the short term it sure will, and does. Mindfulness is already used in such ways, and has been used that way historically too. Not saying it's good by any means, but that ship has sailed long ago, some form of mindfulness has been part of military training for thousands of years.
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tiagolps
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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by tiagolps » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:23 am

odysseus wrote:Of course mindfulness could be an aid in healing a wound after battle. But to use it to make a better marksman or such, is foolish and will never work out the way they think.
Where would Snipers be without mindfulness? They have to developed a great Samatha :tongue:


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odysseus
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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by odysseus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:02 pm

Ah, you guys have too high hopes. Buddhist mindfulness is about peace, not to make you a talented soldier. I hope the modern mindfulness hoax will not get to you. Mindfulness is healing, not to win.
Let a man not seek for the respect of his peers, but let him seek wisdom.

-- Dhammapada

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Dan74
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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by Dan74 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:01 pm

Meido wrote: To my mind, the same thing is easily observed in dance. Classically trained dancers who exhaustively master demanding forms, embody the principles encoded within such, and then are able to break/transcend forms to realize a new level of creativity and freedom, are very different from dancers who try to express such freedom from form without such prior training. In other words: to be free of form in these disciplines, one must pass completely through forms, not avoid and negate them out of conceptual conceit (unless one is the very rare naturally gifted genius.
My art teacher (painting and drawing - not martial arts) used to say the same thing. "Before you can forget the form, you've got to master the form." Form, of course means something a little different here as in representational art where form is paramount, if nor classical art. Modern art began perhaps when the departure from form reached a breaking point. But people like Bacon still respect the importance of form by destroying it.

:focus:

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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by Aryjna » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:22 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Mantrik wrote:I recently read this comment elsewhere:
'' Shakyamuni Buddha told a sea captain that an act of murder he committed was not negative as, having overheard the victim plotting to kill all the others on the boat the captain’s motivation was compassionate in wishing to save the lives of his five hundred other voyagers. Pacifism should not detract from one’s kindness. If the avoidance of killing is merely cowardice and lack of deep concern for others, then failure to act is a breakage of one’s vows. ''
Why is it that this same tired (and single) example is regurgitated every time whenever Buddhism and violence are mentioned? It is one insignificant story from the Jataka Tales for crying out loud. Is there another more valid example out there?
Don't know. It was quoted by one of LOTR's seniors in the UK, with reference to the 14 root downfalls, so I noticed it, but do you know of others?
Killing is justified in some cases, but I don't think that applies to very likely situations, much less to being a professional warrior under any circumstances.
If you should see someone thinking of committing many "actions
with immediate result4", such as killing numerous shravakas,
pratyekabuddhas5, or bodhisattvas merely for the sake of some
petty material goods, while you avoid the karmic result, even
taking their life with a loving motivation would not be a negative
action, but would actually accrue a great deal of merit.
http://www.zangthal.co.uk/files/Nine_considerations.pdf

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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by jkarlins » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:17 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Meido wrote: To my mind, the same thing is easily observed in dance. Classically trained dancers who exhaustively master demanding forms, embody the principles encoded within such, and then are able to break/transcend forms to realize a new level of creativity and freedom, are very different from dancers who try to express such freedom from form without such prior training. In other words: to be free of form in these disciplines, one must pass completely through forms, not avoid and negate them out of conceptual conceit (unless one is the very rare naturally gifted genius.
My art teacher (painting and drawing - not martial arts) used to say the same thing. "Before you can forget the form, you've got to master the form." Form, of course means something a little different here as in representational art where form is paramount, if nor classical art. Modern art began perhaps when the departure from form reached a breaking point. But people like Bacon still respect the importance of form by destroying it.

:focus:
I totally agree, and I think it is on topic. That's the cliche you hear sometimes, but it's true. Look again to Ueshiba. Look to his better students. They are artists. Just like great boxers. (Canelo Golovkin is this weekend!)

As far as killing itself, that could spin off easily into killing in general, but I do know that it is acceptable in some cases. Hopefully killing a person is something no one has to confront in real life, but self defense is a real consideration.

Jake
Last edited by jkarlins on Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:24 pm

Aryjna wrote:Killing is justified in some cases, but I don't think that applies to very likely situations, much less to being a professional warrior under any circumstances.
Yes it is. But the probability that a being satisfies all the factors and criteria that need to be taken into consideration before killing them, is next to zero.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:30 pm

odysseus wrote:Ah, you guys have too high hopes. Buddhist mindfulness is about peace, not to make you a talented soldier. I hope the modern mindfulness hoax will not get to you. Mindfulness is healing, not to win.
It's not exclusively modern, mindfulness is an innate capacity, and it has existed outside of Buddhist contexts for a long time. I'm not saying it's always positive, but it's there.
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Mantrik
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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by Mantrik » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:02 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
odysseus wrote:Ah, you guys have too high hopes. Buddhist mindfulness is about peace, not to make you a talented soldier. I hope the modern mindfulness hoax will not get to you. Mindfulness is healing, not to win.
It's not exclusively modern, mindfulness is an innate capacity, and it has existed outside of Buddhist contexts for a long time. I'm not saying it's always positive, but it's there.
Indeed. It is neither modern nor the property of Buddhism. Neither is meditation.

In the context of the thread we may observe the mind and our actions, but it can be the case in martial arts that we are aware only of a blending harmoniously with the energy of the attacker and overcoming it, free of conscious thought process. This means that we have enough training to forget about techniques and respond purely with instinct. So ideas of compatibility with Buddhadharma are not a consideration during such combat. That thought process is a matter for our choice to enter into a situation where we know we may be called upon to fight.

So, the time to consider Buddhadharma is, for example, when we consider if it is right to enlist for military service, join the police or work as a doorman.

It also the right time to do so when we see someone about to commit a violent act, as we have to decide if we can prevent it and how. There is a world of difference between causing pain and causing damage, so my first choice would be to cause them whatever level of pain is required to stop them. If that is not enough, then if we know how to damage them, we can use that.

If serious enough (suicide bomber in an infants' school about to pull the cord, maybe?) we need far more urgency, so we can only guess what we think we may do...........and therein lies the rub. You can have as many ideas as you like about what you would do, your personal ethics, your Buddhist faith, but let's say someone is about to turn your child into mincemeat with a bomb in a few seconds and you could stop them, given no time for pondering, would you refuse to kill? Sure, you can find scripture to say it is OK or not OK, but in the end, it depends entirely on the way your mind is conditioned to behave.
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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:58 pm

:good:
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Re: mindfulness, meditation and martial arts and war

Post by odysseus » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:08 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote: mindfulness is an innate capacity, and it has existed outside of Buddhist contexts for a long time.
Well, I still think Buddha has the Copyright to mindfulness, so to speak. It comes from him, not from some little military psychologist copy-cat.
Let a man not seek for the respect of his peers, but let him seek wisdom.

-- Dhammapada

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