J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

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DGA
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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by DGA » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:55 am

rory wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:22 am
ItsRaining wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:06 pm

I think her language is suggesting that Tathagatagarbha formed a separate tradition beside that of the Yogacara in China (A few people like Zongmi and Chengguan classified it as such) not that Buddha Nature arose in China.
*sigh* thank you. I include the book and page number and repeatedly say "you can read this over at google books" so that people can inform themselves of the argument and have a thoughtful discussion. If DGA had actually bothered to read the page, he'd see the title as " A Geneaology of Original Enlightenment Thought" and then Indian Yogacara mentioned but a big big discussion of the Chinese apocryphon "The Awakening of Faith", Hua-yen, li and shih , Zongmi and Chengguan on p. 6 and finally the Buddhahood of non-sentient beings or in Japanese somoku jobutsu that's page 8!
We agree on the content of Stone's text, as you can see from what I wrote earlier in this thread. Surely you read the whole thread before jumping to conclusions...

viewtopic.php?f=102&p=422326#p422189

But that's the less interesting point. Here's the real crux of the matter:


Based on your extensive reading, would you say that tathagatha-garbha was taught as a central premise of Mahayana Buddhism in India, or do you hold that it was a Chinese development that is absent from Mahayana prior to (or outside the influence of) Zhiyi?

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rory
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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by rory » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:22 am

Oh gods, haven't you ever heard of The Awakening of Faith ?
please for the love of this forum just pick up a book!
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Coëmgenu
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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:38 pm

What a powerfully stated non-sequitur.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

DGA
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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:51 pm

rory wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:22 am
Oh gods, haven't you ever heard of The Awakening of Faith ?
please for the love of this forum just pick up a book!
gassho
Rory
I've read the Awakening of Faith. In fact, I've led discussion on it. But that's beside the point.

I notice that you are avoiding the question again. Here it is, one more time:
rory wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:22 am
Based on your extensive reading, would you say that tathagatha-garbha was taught as a central premise of Mahayana Buddhism in India, or do you hold that it was a Chinese development that is absent from Mahayana prior to (or outside the influence of) Zhiyi?

DGA
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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:55 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:38 pm
What a powerfully stated non-sequitur.
There's an ad hom assumed in there too:
rory wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:22 am
Oh gods, haven't you ever heard of The Awakening of Faith ?
please for the love of this forum just pick up a book!

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dzogchungpa
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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:04 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:38 pm
What a powerfully stated non-sequitur.

Rory, like all Pure Land practitioners, is kind and doesn't spend time arguing but she is indeed fond of the powerfully stated non-sequitur.
... nothing can be found by finding. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

DGA
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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:15 pm

This is good DharmaWheel.

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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:37 am

DGA wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:51 pm
rory wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:22 am
Oh gods, haven't you ever heard of The Awakening of Faith ?
please for the love of this forum just pick up a book!
gassho
Rory
I've read the Awakening of Faith. In fact, I've led discussion on it. But that's beside the point.

I notice that you are avoiding the question again. Here it is, one more time:
DGA wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:22 am
Based on your extensive reading, would you say that tathagatha-garbha was taught as a central premise of Mahayana Buddhism in India, or do you hold that it was a Chinese development that is absent from Mahayana prior to (or outside the influence of) Zhiyi?
It's not a trick.

Related: as someone who values the insights of historians, do you understand why the Awakening of Faith is irrelevant to this question?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:07 pm

DGA wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:37 am
DGA wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:51 pm
rory wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:22 am
Oh gods, haven't you ever heard of The Awakening of Faith ?
please for the love of this forum just pick up a book!
gassho
Rory
I've read the Awakening of Faith. In fact, I've led discussion on it. But that's beside the point.

I notice that you are avoiding the question again. Here it is, one more time:
DGA wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:22 am
Based on your extensive reading, would you say that tathagatha-garbha was taught as a central premise of Mahayana Buddhism in India, or do you hold that it was a Chinese development that is absent from Mahayana prior to (or outside the influence of) Zhiyi?
It's not a trick.

Related: as someone who values the insights of historians, do you understand why the Awakening of Faith is irrelevant to this question?
IMO she doesn't want to answer. This thread was started, afaik, because I said, in a different thread, that Ven Zhiyi predates the contemporary Chinese mainstream tripartite fusion of Madhyamaka-Yogācāra-Tathāgatagarbha. Rory thought I was saying that Ven Zhiyi either a) completely predated Yogācāra or that b) he never read Yogācāra texts in his life. She responded with a quote from J Stone's book designed to substantiate that Ven Zhiyi was aware of some Yogācāra discourse, but the quotes addressed Tiāntāi Buddhism in general, not the work of Ven Zhiyi.

Either way, Yogācāra was not unknown in the 500s AD in China.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Minobu
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Re: J. Stone's book on Original Enlightenment

Post by Minobu » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:18 pm

Sadly the discussion seems to focus on the authenticity and the origins of thought on the matter..

For me it is all about what exactly is Original enlightenment and does it imply that the universe is the body of Buddha...and where we dwell is the Buddha's land.

Is this tien Tai thought and does Nichiren Shonin go along with this or does He tweek it ?

this is what i think her book is about from a pdf file i found online of chapter one and the preface.

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