Sum-pa Language?

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pemachophel
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Sum-pa Language?

Post by pemachophel » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:15 pm

can anyone tell me what the "sum-pa" laguage is (as in sum-pa'i ked-du)?

e.g.,

Zhang-zhung-gi ked-du: Ta-la-pa-ta-ya-na-ha
Sum-pai ked-du: A-ra-na-ba-li-ya
Gya-gar ked-du: Naga Raja Dhaya
Bod ked-du: Lui Pang-kong
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:19 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:15 pm
can anyone tell me what the "sum-pa" laguage is (as in sum-pa'i ked-du)?

e.g.,

Zhang-zhung-gi ked-du: Ta-la-pa-ta-ya-na-ha
Sum-pai ked-du: A-ra-na-ba-li-ya
Gya-gar ked-du: Naga Raja Dhaya
Bod ked-du: Lui Pang-kong
This is probably a moron answer, and please forgive me, but it looks like several varieties of Tibetan.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:40 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:15 pm
can anyone tell me what the "sum-pa" laguage is (as in sum-pa'i ked-du)?

e.g.,

Zhang-zhung-gi ked-du: Ta-la-pa-ta-ya-na-ha
Sum-pai ked-du: A-ra-na-ba-li-ya
Gya-gar ked-du: Naga Raja Dhaya
Bod ked-du: Lui Pang-kong
Sum pa is a region in northern Tibet.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pemachophel
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by pemachophel » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:42 pm

sorry.

at the beginning of tibetan canonical texts, there is always a statement og where the text came from. usually this is only two lines: gyagar ked-du, i.e., in the indian language, and bod ked-du, in the tietan language. however in one text i've been working on for some time, it lists two orther language sources: zhang zhung gi ked-du, the shangshung language, and sum-pa'i ked-du, the sum-pa language. so what i'm trying to determine is what is the sumpa language in english terms. sogdian? drushta? something else?
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

pemachophel
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by pemachophel » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:44 pm

loppon-la,

is that the same sumpa as in sumpa khenpo? if so, that'd place it in amdo. Yes?

in any case, thanks once again for your erudition.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Malcolm
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:51 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:44 pm
loppon-la,

is that the same sumpa as in sumpa khenpo? if so, that'd place it in amdo. Yes?

in any case, thanks once again for your erudition.
It is the same sum pa.

Perhaps at the time the text was written, people in that region spoke a language substantially different than Tibetan. Usually, the list follows the order of languages it has been translated from, in this case from Zhang Zhung language, to Sum pa, then into Chinese, and then finally into Tibetan, meaning it is a text of Bonpo origin in all likelihood.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pemachophel
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Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by pemachophel » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:12 am

thanks for the heads up on the order of languages listed. didn't know that at all.

after sum-pa, goes to gya-gar, not gya-nag. so indian/sanskrit, not chinese.

in any case, part of the text -- i'd say the major part and definitely the first part -- is spoken by Buddha to Ananda. the bon-po section is easily identified since all the spirits listed are called bon nyen this or that. the sumpa section i have yet to identify.

have now read up on the sum-pa (what there is on line). interesting.

thanks again. sorry for the non-caps and any typos. one-finger typing due to broken forearm
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

tingdzin
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by tingdzin » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:01 am

In case it wasn't in the stuff you read, a theory is that the Sumpa are the same people earlier described as the Hsien-pi in older Chinese sources, i.e. proto-Monolians.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:55 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:01 am
In case it wasn't in the stuff you read, a theory is that the Sumpa are the same people earlier described as the Hsien-pi in older Chinese sources, i.e. proto-Monolians.
That makes sense phonetically.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pemachophel
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Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by pemachophel » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:00 pm

the sources i read said they were also referred to by the shang dynasty as qiang, and that later they were called the sun-po in chinese.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

tingdzin
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by tingdzin » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:27 am

"Qiang" is an inexact catch-all term for nomadic people the Chinese had no real interest in, ethnographically. I believe the Hsien-pi followed the Hsiung-nu on the Mongolian steppes, and were sometimes taken to be ancestors of the Jurchen (Jin) Dynasty. Been a while since I read this stuff, so I'm not 100% on it, but anyway it's probably more than the OP cares about.

MiphamFan
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by MiphamFan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:09 am

There was a mysterious people called the A zha by the Tibetans and Tuyuhun by the Chinese who lived around Qinghai. Wonder whether they were related.

tingdzin
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by tingdzin » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:55 am

As I recall, they are usually discussed as separate peoples, but that's not to say that there wasn't some connection. The Qinghai area was an is an amazing ethnic mosaic. Inner Asian nomadic and semi-nomadic polities often incorporated different peoples under their umbrellas, so that, for example, a lot of the soldiers in Chinggis (a.k.a. Genghis) Khan's army were not strictly Mongols but rather Turks. The fall of a nomadic empire often just meant that people had a new group of rulers rather than that they were displaced altogether (though that sometimes happened too).

PeterC
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by PeterC » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:03 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:55 am
As I recall, they are usually discussed as separate peoples, but that's not to say that there wasn't some connection. The Qinghai area was an is an amazing ethnic mosaic. Inner Asian nomadic and semi-nomadic polities often incorporated different peoples under their umbrellas, so that, for example, a lot of the soldiers in Chinggis (a.k.a. Genghis) Khan's army were not strictly Mongols but rather Turks. The fall of a nomadic empire often just meant that people had a new group of rulers rather than that they were displaced altogether (though that sometimes happened too).
Did the Xianbei ever get that far Southwest - I thought their territory was mostly to the North/East of the Xia/Tangut? Though it's entirely possible that their language was in use outside that area. They would have spoken a Turkic-Mongolic dialect presumably, not a Tibetan dialect?

tingdzin
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Re: Sum-pa Language?

Post by tingdzin » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:01 am

Well, the Xian pi as a polity had fallen by the time the Sumpa first appear in Tibetan sources. It's always difficult to be sure about the extent of these Inner Asian groups' territories. As I recall, Stein has a map in "Tibetan Civilization: which has them mgrating widely to the south and west. It's also possible that new information has come to light since I studied this stuff -- it's hard to keep up sometimes. Yes, I think the consensus was that their language was Turco-Mongol.

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