‘Dharmas do not arise’

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‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:11 pm

From here

I do encounter this declaration on DharmaWheel regularly, but I don’t understand it. What I always want to say is ‘but I still have to mow the lawn’. So - what does it mean?
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Ayu » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:23 pm

Well, actually mowing the lawn is very unhealthy for the environment. :shrug:
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:32 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:11 pm
From here

I do encounter this declaration on DharmaWheel regularly, but I don’t understand it. What I always want to say is ‘but I still have to mow the lawn’. So - what does it mean?
Just consult the good 'ol Heart Sutra I think. All of the 12 links are inherently empty, and there is no actual beginning or end to anything,arising and cessation are illusions of illusions. Seen from emptiness there aren't "cycles" or "processes" any more than there are things, no arising, no cessation, etc. etc.

As to what it means in daily life that is a broad question!
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:48 pm

Events occur, as objects of awareness even though they don't truly exist.
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:21 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:32 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:11 pm
From here

I do encounter this declaration on DharmaWheel regularly, but I don’t understand it. What I always want to say is ‘but I still have to mow the lawn’. So - what does it mean?
Just consult the good 'ol Heart Sutra I think. All of the 12 links are inherently empty, and there is no actual beginning or end to anything,arising and cessation are illusions of illusions. Seen from emptiness there aren't "cycles" or "processes" any more than there are things, no arising, no cessation, etc. etc.

As to what it means in daily life that is a broad question!
Well quite.
Not much help if you accidentally step in front of a bus. 'Cos something painful will certainly arise for someone. :smile:
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Ogyen » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:21 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:32 pm
As to what it means in daily life that is a broad question!
And actually the most relevant part for the realization through the assorted illusions of what arises...

:meditate:
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:37 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:11 pm
From here

I do encounter this declaration on DharmaWheel regularly, but I don’t understand it. What I always want to say is ‘but I still have to mow the lawn’. So - what does it mean?
I think it basically means that our everyday sentient experience is fundamentally deluded.

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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:46 am

Thanks, all - I do get the general drift of the expression. But I do sometimes encounter it in discussions here, in forms like, 'from the beginning, not a single thing exists'. And that is a radical thing to say. After all, the philosophy that 'nothing really exists' is exactly the meaning of 'philosophical nihilism'. But I don't think it does that mean that.

So - I posted this in Academic because I was rather hoping to get some links to some of the texts that make this kind of statement, and the commentaries on it. (The OP was obviously a bit scanty, for which I apologise, but I didn't want to introduce another digression into the thread from which it originated.)

@Ayu - actually mowing doesn't hurt the grass, it is quite well adapted to being cropped short. :smile:
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Ogyen » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:26 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:46 am
Thanks, all - I do get the general drift of the expression. But I do sometimes encounter it in discussions here, in forms like, 'from the beginning, not a single thing exists'. And that is a radical thing to say. After all, the philosophy that 'nothing really exists' is exactly the meaning of 'philosophical nihilism'. But I don't think it does that mean that.
Indeed it does not mean nihilism at all, from another thread, Krodha put this nicely and since I just read it today I'm quoting it... Please correct me if I misunderstood that this is the main conventional reason dharmas do not arise...
krodha wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:01 am
an epistemological non-duality [buddhadharma] is simply a recognition that the nature of phenomena is free from the dual extremes of existence and non-existence, hence "non-dual". This is a non-reductive non-duality because it does not leave anything in its wake, there is no X left over once the nature of phenomena is recognized.

In epistemic non-duality the nature of a conditioned phenomenon [dharma] and its non-arisen nature [dharmatā] are ultimately neither the same nor different, hence they are "non-dual", because the misconception of a conditioned entity is a byproduct of ignorance, and therefore said entity has never truly come into existence in the first place. This means that the allegedly conditioned entity has truly been unconditioned from the very beginning. And to realize this fact only requires a cessation of cause for the arising of the misconception of a conditioned entity, i.e., a cessation of ignorance. If dharmins and dharmatā were not non-dual then it would be impossible to recognize the unborn nature of phenomena because that nature would be rendered another conditioned entity.
formatting mine

Given this position, there can be no "inherent" existence, but a conventional existence that arises out of ignorance... Over and over again. This statement of "it doesn't really exist" is tricky and can lead to a ton of confusion because it needs a context to be understood ... In relation to this context, one can say nothing TRULY exists in its inherent form, even though I'm quite sure my kids wake me up at 6am in the morning when I just want 10 more minutes of sleep... So conventionally I'm in oodles of byproduct of all Kinda ignorance ovah here. Telling me it doesn't really exist doesn't get them breakfast and to school on time... However if I'm late and I'm trying to do my best i can with managing the conventional reality, I also don't need to stress out too much about if I just flop and fail, and need to try again.. because ultimately I am just trying to abide by conventions that in the totality of existence ... They're ultimately empty.. :rolling:

Just trying to keep it real....
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"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Grigoris » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:41 am

This is in the Academic Discussion sub-forum people: citations and quotations are needed.

And I repeat: CITATIONS AND QUOTES ARE NEEDED.
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Way-Fun » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:55 pm

According to Dogen, particular dharmas are what time is. The when and the what are one and the same. How then, do things arise?

"[Human] skin bags recognize [time] as leaving and coming; none has penetrated it as existence-time abiding in its place: how much less could any experience time having passed through the gate?"

"The whole universe is neither beyond moving and changing nor beyond progressing and regressing; it is passage from one moment to the next. An example of the momentary passing of time is spring. Spring has innumerable different aspects, which we call “a passage of time.” We should learn in practice that the momentary passing of time continues without there being any external thing. The momentary passing of spring, for example, inevitably passes, moment by moment, through spring itself. It is not that “the momentary passing of time” is spring; rather, because spring is the momentary passing of time, passing time has already realized the truth in the here and now of springtime. We should study [this] in detail, returning to it and leaving it again and again. If we think, in discussing the momentary passing of time, that circumstances are [only] individual things on the outside, while something which can pass from moment to moment moves east through hundreds of thousands of worlds and through hundreds of thousands of kalpas, then we are not devoting ourselves solely to Buddhist learning in practice."

"Presence is not related to having come, and absence is not related to not having come. Existence-time is like this. Presence is restricted by presence itself; it is not restricted by absence. Absence is restricted by absence itself; it is not restricted by presence. The will hinders the will and meets the will. Words hinder words and meet words. Restriction hinders restriction and meets restriction. Restriction restricts restriction. This is time."


- from Shobogenzo, Chapter Eleven. Uji: Existence-time, page 143
https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings ... o_1_NC.pdf

Dogen's expression is clear, and this translation is about as good as it gets, but here is another for comparison: http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... 011uji.pdf

From Shobogenzo, Genjokoan:

Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death.

This being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.

Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.


- http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... Aitken.htm

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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:58 pm

Many thanks Way-Fun.

Thanks for the sources. They are deep teachings indeed, I will continue to meditate on them.

Also, I remembered after having posted it, that the saying 'from the beginning, not a single thing is', is from the Platform Sutra of Huineng.

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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Norwegian » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:58 pm
Many thanks Way-Fun.

Thanks for the sources. They are deep teachings indeed, I will continue to meditate on them.

Also, I remembered after having posted it, that the saying 'from the beginning, not a single thing is', is from the Platform Sutra of Huineng.

:namaste:
Try studying Nagarjuna's MMK and related texts, such as Aryadeva's Four Hundred Stanzas on the Middle Way, Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara, etc. The issue of there being arising or no arising (and likewise occurring or no occurring etc.) is thoroughly dealt with by Nagarjuna.

And speaking of, I really hope there's a proper translation of Buddhapalita's Mulamadhyamakavritti soon. Seems the project page for one translation of it is gone, as the domain expired...

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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:44 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 pm
And speaking of, I really hope there's a proper translation of Buddhapalita's Mulamadhyamakavritti soon. Seems the project page for one translation of it is gone, as the domain expired...
I believe Geshe Graham Woodhouse is currently working on a translation of this text, I don't know if he's translating the full text or how long it will take as I know he's very meticulous.
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:47 pm

Norwegian wrote: Try studying Nagarjuna's MMK
Oh, I have. I have not had a traditionalist Buddhist education, but I do have a Master's Degree in Buddhist Studies.
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:49 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:47 pm
Norwegian wrote: Try studying Nagarjuna's MMK
Oh, I have.
:rolling:

Not saying I completely understand Nagarjuna. But I can say I got a lot more out of Mipham's commentary of Chandrakirti's commentary, Introduction to the Middle Way, than I did out of Nagarjuna's root text.

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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Matt J » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:53 am

From Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinoche's Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness, Svatantrika Approach:
In a dream the ultimate nature of the various things that manifest is emptiness, because none of them is real. They do not have self-nature in the sense that, for example, the dream fire does not have the nature of fire i.e. it cannot really burn anything. It is not created from the coming together of causes and conditions such as wood and matches etc.. Likewise the dream tiger cannot really bite and does not arise from the coming together of its mother and father etc.. Thus the fire and the tiger do not have the self-nature of fire or of tiger. They are empty of that nature, and yet they appear and function in the sense that they can cause fear and suffering in the dreamer. Their appearing and functioning is the relative truth,
but their absolute reality is emptiness.

In the same way, in waking life, relative phenomena appear and perform functions and yet, although they seem to have independent, lasting existence of their own, they have no such self-nature.

Their ultimate nature is emptiness.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:19 am

Still begs the question of why Madhyamika is not simply nihilism, i.e. 'nothing is real'. It is one thing to say that 'appearances are empty' but another to say that 'nothing whatever exists' - and the latter is nihilism. ('Nihil' means 'nothing', so 'nihilism' means literally 'nothing-ism'.)

There's an academic essay here which says that Madhyamaka is nihilistic. I personally don't agree with that view, but I would be interested in others' ideas on it.
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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:11 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:19 am
Still begs the question of why Madhyamika is not simply nihilism, i.e. 'nothing is real'. It is one thing to say that 'appearances are empty' but another to say that 'nothing whatever exists' - and the latter is nihilism. ('Nihil' means 'nothing', so 'nihilism' means literally 'nothing-ism'.)

There's an academic essay here which says that Madhyamaka is nihilistic. I personally don't agree with that view, but I would be interested in others' ideas on it.

Apparently Asanga thought so, and he wasn't exactly a dope.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:17 am

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:44 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 pm
And speaking of, I really hope there's a proper translation of Buddhapalita's Mulamadhyamakavritti soon. Seems the project page for one translation of it is gone, as the domain expired...
I believe Geshe Graham Woodhouse is currently working on a translation of this text, I don't know if he's translating the full text or how long it will take as I know he's very meticulous.

This thesis appears to contain a translation. I can't say whether it's proper or not though.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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