51 Mental factors vs 80 Indicative Conceptions

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cyberkaya
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51 Mental factors vs 80 Indicative Conceptions

Post by cyberkaya » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:16 pm

Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the Abhidharma's grouping of the 51 mental factors (sems byung) and the 80 indicative conceptions (rang bzhin brgyad cu'i kun rtog) which are referenced in Dzogchen texts? Are they completely different systems, are they related? Any reading recommendations for more information? Thanks!

Malcolm
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Re: 51 Mental factors vs 80 Indicative Conceptions

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:37 pm

cyberkaya wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:16 pm
Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the Abhidharma's grouping of the 51 mental factors (sems byung) and the 80 indicative conceptions (rang bzhin brgyad cu'i kun rtog) which are referenced in Dzogchen texts? Are they completely different systems, are they related? Any reading recommendations for more information? Thanks!
The eighty natural concepts are to be found in the Guhyasāmaja literature, and therefore, they are common to all inner tantras. They refer to eighty concepts that are divided by three groups depending on whether they belong to desire, hatred, or ignorance.

cyberkaya
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: 51 Mental factors vs 80 Indicative Conceptions

Post by cyberkaya » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:37 pm
cyberkaya wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:16 pm
Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the Abhidharma's grouping of the 51 mental factors (sems byung) and the 80 indicative conceptions (rang bzhin brgyad cu'i kun rtog) which are referenced in Dzogchen texts? Are they completely different systems, are they related? Any reading recommendations for more information? Thanks!
The eighty natural concepts are to be found in the Guhyasāmaja literature, and therefore, they are common to all inner tantras. They refer to eighty concepts that are divided by three groups depending on whether they belong to desire, hatred, or ignorance.
Thank you Malcolm for citing the source. Are a completely separate separate system of describing the workings of ordinary mind? Do these two systems relate?

Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 51 Mental factors vs 80 Indicative Conceptions

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:46 pm

cyberkaya wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:37 pm
cyberkaya wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:16 pm
Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the Abhidharma's grouping of the 51 mental factors (sems byung) and the 80 indicative conceptions (rang bzhin brgyad cu'i kun rtog) which are referenced in Dzogchen texts? Are they completely different systems, are they related? Any reading recommendations for more information? Thanks!
The eighty natural concepts are to be found in the Guhyasāmaja literature, and therefore, they are common to all inner tantras. They refer to eighty concepts that are divided by three groups depending on whether they belong to desire, hatred, or ignorance.
Thank you Malcolm for citing the source. Are a completely separate separate system of describing the workings of ordinary mind? Do these two systems relate?
They have no overt relationship. They are completely separate systems. You can see some discussion of these in Wedemeyer's Āryadeva's Lamp that Integrates the Practices.

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Aemilius
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Re: 51 Mental factors vs 80 Indicative Conceptions

Post by Aemilius » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:54 am

cyberkaya wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:16 pm
Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the Abhidharma's grouping of the 51 mental factors (sems byung) and the 80 indicative conceptions (rang bzhin brgyad cu'i kun rtog) which are referenced in Dzogchen texts? Are they completely different systems, are they related? Any reading recommendations for more information? Thanks!
The 51 mental factors comes from the early Sarvastivada Abhidharma, which is close to the Theravada Abhidharma. The 80 mental factors probably comes from the more mature Sarvastivada Abhidharma. I have read about this in History of Indian Buddhism, from Shakyamuni to Early Mahayana (Hirakawa Akira & Paul Groner). There are even longer lists of mental factors in Sarvastivada Abhidharma, something like 122 mental factors.
Good book about this topic is Karl H. Potter's and George Bushwell's Abhidharma Buddhism to 150 A.D.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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