Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

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Loren
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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Loren » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:34 pm

This is from a Nyingma perspective.

I have no clue how The 16th Karmapa and Kalu Rinpoche could use tobacco (snuff). Totally does not jive with my views about tobacco. But that does not stop me from admiring both of them and considering them good teachers.

Besides the whole three steps, one bow is one of the coolest journeys I've heard of and he inspired that right?

EDIT Tobacco was more accepted and the British in India, etc.
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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:55 pm

TheSynergist wrote:Like I said before, I'm currently attending a DRBA-affiliated center, but I'm not formally part of any Buddhist organization and I don't consider Hua my teacher.
Same here!
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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Admin_PC » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:52 pm

TheSynergist wrote:I still maintain, however, that cttb and other Hua-related places should be more clear/forthcoming about where they stand on this subject.
No argument here. :thumbsup:
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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Sherlock » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:19 am

Loren wrote:This is from a Nyingma perspective.

I have no clue how The 16th Karmapa and Kalu Rinpoche could use tobacco (snuff). Totally does not jive with my views about tobacco. But that does not stop me from admiring both of them and considering them good teachers.

Besides the whole three steps, one bow is one of the coolest journeys I've heard of and he inspired that right?

EDIT Tobacco was more accepted and the British in India, etc.
They are Kagyupas.

However, according to Dilgo Khyentse even Adzom Drugpa used tobacco. But there is that story about Dudjom Lingpa using tobacco so that he could reduce some of the damage caused by it in the future -- after all he did reveal a terma talking about its negative effects.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:31 am

What's so bad about snuff anyway?
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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Loren
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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Loren » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:03 am

dzogchungpa wrote:What's so bad about snuff anyway?
It is not healthy. Smoking is the number one preventable cause of death in the U.S. Tobacco in all forms causes cancer.

Now, with that being said, I have wondered if it is possible for a demon to emanate as a plant.
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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:06 am

Dan74 wrote:I don't think it is appropriate here to reject scholarship on the provenance of Mahayana sutras which have been accepted by Tibetan tradition and then assert that Surangama Sutra which has been accepted by the Chan tradition, is inauthentic. This takes Tibetan tradition as the standard, which is fine, but not when you are in the Chan forum.

Perhaps it is more reasonable to suppose that the Sutra takes a skillful approach to overstate its case in order to impress upon the readers that they should not consume these herbs, as other sutras also assert?
My problem isn't the sutra, but the claim the one cannot receive the blessings of enlightened beings because of their smell. This seems tantamount to claiming enlightened beings are afflicted, basically.
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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:47 am

"Now, with that being said, I have wondered if it is possible for a demon to emanate as a plant."

I have heard this as well.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Loren » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:17 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:"Now, with that being said, I have wondered if it is possible for a demon to emanate as a plant."

I have heard this as well.
Well better no tobacco. Go to gym and workout which looks like what some of the Lamas are doing. But I can only speak for myself and I can't tell my teacher what to do so.
:offtopic:
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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Dan74 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:53 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Dan74 wrote:I don't think it is appropriate here to reject scholarship on the provenance of Mahayana sutras which have been accepted by Tibetan tradition and then assert that Surangama Sutra which has been accepted by the Chan tradition, is inauthentic. This takes Tibetan tradition as the standard, which is fine, but not when you are in the Chan forum.

Perhaps it is more reasonable to suppose that the Sutra takes a skillful approach to overstate its case in order to impress upon the readers that they should not consume these herbs, as other sutras also assert?
My problem isn't the sutra, but the claim the one cannot receive the blessings of enlightened beings because of their smell. This seems tantamount to claiming enlightened beings are afflicted, basically.
Maybe Ven Hua was referring to bodhisattvas who were not completely enlightened and the common sense situation of a person whose only fault is bad breath or body odour, receiving much less attention and care than they otherwise would? I don't know. In any case, the effect of his words would probably be people abstaining from these herbs, which is recommended by other sutras as well.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Simon E. » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:38 am

Loren wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:What's so bad about snuff anyway?
It is not healthy. Smoking is the number one preventable cause of death in the U.S. Tobacco in all forms causes cancer.

Now, with that being said, I have wondered if it is possible for a demon to emanate as a plant.

I know at least one well regarded Lama who likes the occasional cigar.

Not, I hasten to add, that I think anyone should emulate him in that...just sayin'.

What i think is important above all is not to be a dilettante..If we follow a teacher , and this applies to any school..we should be consistent to that teachers interpretation. No less and no more.
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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by cjdevries » Thu May 21, 2015 4:25 am

When I was working with a very talented qigong healer/teacher from China (who had an open heavenly eye), she told me to avoid garlic and onion because Kwan Yin and other Bodhisattvas who help heal illness find it more difficult to help (I think it changes the energy negatively). I feel that in serious illnesses it's good to avoid the 5 pungent spices because of the effect on the energy, but for everyone else it's probably ok.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri May 29, 2015 11:49 am

Tashi delek DW members,


If i see that garlic and onions are forbidden in Buddhism then this is very remarkable.
Remarkable if i consider that the eating of meat is not seen as forbidden and that the guardians etc. are kind to these meat eaters.

So if we compare eating meat and eating garlic, which does harm more the ethics ?

Very great non sense in my point of view that eating meat is welcome / ok and the eating of garlic is prohibited or not welcome.
It harms more the general Buddhist ethics if meat is consumed than the eating / consuming of garlic , onions etc.
Well the eating of human flesh, is in some Tantra practice (cremation grounds) even encouraged and seen as a method.......

Further is Garlic a medicine, and seen in the light of medicine allowed to consume in Buddhism, isn't it?

So to me is here the meaning of good or not good very big illusion and very individual seen etc.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Fortyeightvows » Fri May 29, 2015 3:59 pm

the same sutra which forbids the eating of the onions and garlic also forbids the eating of meat. they are both included in the bodhisattva vows from the brhama net sutra.
it is explained in a few different sutras.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by DGA » Fri May 29, 2015 4:39 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:the same sutra which forbids the eating of the onions and garlic also forbids the eating of meat. they are both included in the bodhisattva vows from the brhama net sutra.
and the consumption of alcohol too. There is some variability in how this is implemented. If you travel to Japan and encounter a priest who has ordained under this system, you will surely encounter some who are very competent drinkers indeed. Ask me how I know.

I once spent some very interesting hours at a Korean temple in Maryland. There, I was taught that the ordinands and the master must eat really boring food--that the point of excluding alliums is to diminish attachment to tastes. In my own opinion, this is analogous to excluding sexual contact from other, perhaps less interesting experiences of touch. Which is to say that a life without pungent foods is not unlike a celibate life. Renunciation.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat May 30, 2015 9:22 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:the same sutra which forbids the eating of the onions and garlic also forbids the eating of meat. they are both included in the bodhisattva vows from the brhama net sutra.
it is explained in a few different sutras.
Tashi delek F,

For me this Sutra of the Brahma Net is ok, regarding the prohibition of meat eating.
But Garlic and onions do i see and experience it as medicine.
Accept also that weak persons should eat meat as medicine.

So if we see Garlic, onions and meat as medicine it can be consumed and that is far more accepted in the world of Buddhism.
Even alcohol can be seen as medicine. If we drink daily a glass of wine it does cause that the blood will be thin not greasy.
Then in Tantra one has to eat meat and drink wine anyway. Also here it is allowed but then in small quantities. Maybe one can also drink here a bottle of wine.....

So very difficult to forbid medicine in the world of Buddhism.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by WeiHan » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:32 pm

Refraining from Garlic is a strange idea to me because it has many health benefits which cannot be found in other food.
It clears the blood vessels from clotting with bad colesterol. It helps with high blood pressure. It provides energy for people who always feel weak and lethargic. Since it helps with the blood vessel, it reduces the chance of stroke. Blood vessel clotting can affect blood circulation which can lead to other problem like insomnia. It can cure unexplainable pain which apparently doctors can't find a reason for the pain...the list goes on...

With regards to garlic giving a bad smell, how about black fermented garlic which does NOT gives out pungent smell, taste sweet and nice and has much stronger medicinal, health benefits than the raw white counterparts?

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by SeeLion » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:03 pm

Spicy food certainly has its downsides for spiritual practice, since it agitates the mind .

Regarding "health benefits", check and see if this statement might cover a craving and/or guilt. You hear that a lot when people talk about coffee/chocolate. Also, wine, sometimes beer.

Because ... you can always replace garlic with other healthy products which don't have its downsides.

There are dozens of remedies for what is mentioned above (cholesterol, blood pressure, etc.).

As for sensitive noses ... You could always cover the smell, just burn more incense, that should cover the garlic smell and help protect the sensitivities of the enlightened beings. I hear chewing parsley also helps.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by WeiHan » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:22 am

I don't see how garlic agitates the mind. When the body feels more healthy, the mind concentrates better with power and sharp focus, not the other way round. Dharma has flexibility to thousands of methods to suite different people, maybe the people that practice Dharma should also understand that not every rule is true for everybody bcos everybody body constitution is different.

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Re: Master Hsuan Hua on garlic, onions, etc.

Post by Ayu » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:16 am

WeiHan wrote:I don't see how garlic agitates the mind. When the body feels more healthy, the mind concentrates better with power and sharp focus, not the other way round.
As far as I understood it is on a more subtle level. In Indian philosophy garlic is on the list of "tamasic" food since ages. Tamasic means it leads to a cruder mind. It is no issue of health or happiness but of subtleness. (But Tibetan Highest Yogatantra is an exception.)

Dharma has flexibility to thousands of methods to suite different people, maybe the people that practice Dharma should also understand that not every rule is true for everybody bcos everybody body constitution is different.
I agree completly.
This refrain from garlic and onions is just for people who practice a certain mind training.
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