Sudden Buddhahood?

User avatar
Wayfarer
Posts: 3515
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:41 am

AnonymousX wrote:Aren't we actually engaging in information that we've heard from one source or another?
Well, that's true, but it wasn't what I was getting at. What I'm saying is a reflection on the teaching 'all beings are already Buddha'. '"Suzuki Roshi said "...to be a human being is to be a Buddha. Buddha nature is just another name for human nature–true human nature." This means that being Buddha is intrinsic or essential to being human. If we were not Buddha, we could not be human." That's from a dharma talk here. But that doesn't mean there's no need to practice. Practice is remembering what we have forgotten, and we have to practice continuously, but never with the idea of gaining something.

Actually there are two meanings to 'right recollection' (smṛti) which in Buddhist terminology is both 'remembering' and 'mindfulness'. The external meaning is recollecting the teachings i.e. being able to recite them. The inner meaning is 'remembering the True Nature'. That is more what I was referring to.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:28 am

Wayfarer wrote:
AnonymousX wrote:Aren't we actually engaging in information that we've heard from one source or another?
Well, that's true, but it wasn't what I was getting at. What I'm saying is a reflection on the teaching 'all beings are already Buddha'. '"Suzuki Roshi said "...to be a human being is to be a Buddha. Buddha nature is just another name for human nature–true human nature." This means that being Buddha is intrinsic or essential to being human. If we were not Buddha, we could not be human." That's from a dharma talk here. But that doesn't mean there's no need to practice. Practice is remembering what we have forgotten, and we have to practice continuously, but never with the idea of gaining something.

Actually there are two meanings to 'right recollection' (smṛti) which in Buddhist terminology is both 'remembering' and 'mindfulness'. The external meaning is recollecting the teachings i.e. being able to recite them. The inner meaning is 'remembering the True Nature'. That is more what I was referring to.
Without a reference point, mentioning Buddha is quite meaningless. There are places in this world where Buddha is an unknown word and the existent cultures would not know what you were referring to. You would have to elaborate and give them a lot of information about what Buddha is. They would then take this information and process and create their own images and interpret what that information meant. This is what I mean by cultural conditioning. You hear a lot of stories, ingest a lot of information, but this information is still information. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't help you survive and creates 'food for thought', thinking about thinking. You are describing practice as remembering something you forgot. This is only remembering information. You didn't forget anything. That information about Buddha or meditative states has already been described to you through your studies. It is only information that you think about and try to induce a state that you match with the information you have. Calm, agitated, aware, etc., are all words that you think about and give meaning to. This is all a conditioned process. You only 'discover' what you already know. You can't practice without the idea of gaining something. That kind of observation is real contemplation which has nothing to do with 'practice' or remembering anything. There is no part of 'you' that is not conditioned. This is a very difficult thing to see. You see parts of it and let them go, but not all of it. No practice can achieve this in spite of many claims. If it were possible, it would be a victory for 'self'.

User avatar
Wayfarer
Posts: 3515
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:21 am

AnonymousX wrote:Without a reference point, mentioning Buddha is quite meaningless.
I did attribute the quotation, and this is a Dharma forum, so it can be assumed that everyone here is at least familiar with the term 'Buddha'. The 'no gaining idea' is one of the central tenets of Suzuki Roshi's book, Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, and that is what I was referring to. As for the idea of 'recollection' being 'recalling the true nature', I can assure you that is not my invention.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6706
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Astus » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:38 am

Wayfarer wrote:Practice is remembering what we have forgotten, and we have to practice continuously, but never with the idea of gaining something.
Zongmi writes this about the Jingzhong school's main teaching:

"The "three topics" are: "no remembering, no mindfulness, and do not forget." The idea is as follows. Do not recall past sense objects. Do not anticipate glorious events in the future. Constantly be yoked to this wisdom, never darkening, never erring; this is called do not forget. Sometimes [the three topics are]: no remembering external sense objects; no thinking of internal mind, dried up with nothing to rely upon (do not forget as above). "Precepts, concentration, and wisdom" correspond respectively to the three topics."
(Zongmi on Chan, p 181)
Actually there are two meanings to 'right recollection' (smṛti) which in Buddhist terminology is both 'remembering' and 'mindfulness'. The external meaning is recollecting the teachings i.e. being able to recite them. The inner meaning is 'remembering the True Nature'. That is more what I was referring to.
In Chan "right recollection" (zhengnian 正念) is no recollection (wunian 無念 / asmrti). Being mindful is practice, no-mindfulness is enlightenment.

"To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to arrive at the stage of buddhahood."
(Platform Sutra, ch2, BDK ed, p34; T48n2008, p351b5)

"All [deliberate] activation of cultivation is false activity.
To guard one’s abiding is not true serenity."

(ch7, p61; p356b21)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
Wayfarer
Posts: 3515
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:42 am

So there is 'true serenity'? Or is that also 'no serenity'? It seems whatever one says, there is a quotation that it negates it. Better probably to make no statement, as no statement seems to be a true statement.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:58 am

Wayfarer wrote:
AnonymousX wrote:Without a reference point, mentioning Buddha is quite meaningless.
I did attribute the quotation, and this is a Dharma forum, so it can be assumed that everyone here is at least familiar with the term 'Buddha'. The 'no gaining idea' is one of the central tenets of Suzuki Roshi's book, Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, and that is what I was referring to. As for the idea of 'recollection' being 'recalling the true nature', I can assure you that is not my invention.
No, you misunderstood about the reference point. It had nothing to do with Suzuki Roshi's book. But, there is the assumption that what you read in that book is somehow true and you set out to experience it. In a very real way, it is your invention. I don't mean this in a dismissive/derogatory way. We all do this.

In order to speak about or entertain ideas about Buddha, you need to have some kind of reference, input into your informational system regarding him. Some cultures have no idea of Buddha and never think about this at all. All this input is put into you by the culture you live in, hence, it is all conditioned and second hand. You read about meditation and attaining wisdom, etc., and this becomes a goal. You practice and create all kinds of experiences for yourself, but do they have anything to with what is? We only think about thinking. That is what is for most of us. We fabricate everything. I don't know if I'm making myself clear. Our actual experiences including recalling our true nature is mostly a fabrication, something happening to 'you'. Meditation is mostly manipulation for most people, a control of thinking/feeling, and this creates 'states of mind' which come and go just like your thoughts and feelings. The quiet mind is another kind of manipulation, the thoughtless state. Few people really contemplate this as they are too busy trying to attain 'something'. I think we have to question all of this.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6706
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Astus » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:03 am

Wayfarer wrote:So there is 'true serenity'? Or is that also 'no serenity'? It seems whatever one says, there is a quotation that it negates it. Better probably to make no statement, as no statement seems to be a true statement.
The point is simply to recognise that all states are impermanent and empty. Thus there is no state to cultivate. That is true serenity.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1228
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by seeker242 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:23 pm

Astus wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:So there is 'true serenity'? Or is that also 'no serenity'? It seems whatever one says, there is a quotation that it negates it. Better probably to make no statement, as no statement seems to be a true statement.
The point is simply to recognise that all states are impermanent and empty. Thus there is no state to cultivate. That is true serenity.

:good: :woohoo: :guns:


However, what about cultivating "the state" that recognise that all states are impermanent and empty? Because the fact that all states are impermanent and empty, is not immediately obvious, if it was then no one would attach to them.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6706
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Astus » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:27 pm

seeker242 wrote:However, what about cultivating "the state" that recognise that all states are impermanent and empty? Because the fact that all states are impermanent and empty, is not immediately obvious, if it was then no one would attach to them.
First there is the path (prayogamarga & sambharamarga) to gain recognition (darsanamarga), then there is the training to habituate (bhavanamarga) it, eventually arriving at no practice (asaiksamarga). That is called the gradual path. The sudden way is going directly to the realisation of no practice.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:43 am

Astus wrote:
seeker242 wrote:However, what about cultivating "the state" that recognise that all states are impermanent and empty? Because the fact that all states are impermanent and empty, is not immediately obvious, if it was then no one would attach to them.
First there is the path (prayogamarga & sambharamarga) to gain recognition (darsanamarga), then there is the training to habituate (bhavanamarga) it, eventually arriving at no practice (asaiksamarga). That is called the gradual path. The sudden way is going directly to the realisation of no practice.
It's a lot easier and quicker to simply recognize that all practice is an attempt to change, modify, or become something rather than go through all 'paths' that only lead back to this recognition of deception. Contemplation of this is the only requirement that I can see which can reveal what the 'search' is all about and how it prevents one from being present in the moment.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6706
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Astus » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:08 am

Anonymous X wrote:It's a lot easier and quicker to simply recognize that all practice is an attempt to change, modify, or become something rather than go through all 'paths' that only lead back to this recognition of deception. Contemplation of this is the only requirement that I can see which can reveal what the 'search' is all about and how it prevents one from being present in the moment.
Practice is about learning to let go by comprehending the emptiness of appearances. The sudden path differs from the gradual in that it goes directly to wisdom instead of building up morality and meditation first, and that's how it is less a matter of method and more of individual capacity. As for "being present in the moment", while I don't know what you exactly mean, it doesn't sound like anything but a futile attempt of being somewhere.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:22 am

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:It's a lot easier and quicker to simply recognize that all practice is an attempt to change, modify, or become something rather than go through all 'paths' that only lead back to this recognition of deception. Contemplation of this is the only requirement that I can see which can reveal what the 'search' is all about and how it prevents one from being present in the moment.
Practice is about learning to let go by comprehending the emptiness of appearances. The sudden path differs from the gradual in that it goes directly to wisdom instead of building up morality and meditation first, and that's how it is less a matter of method and more of individual capacity. As for "being present in the moment", while I don't know what you exactly mean, it doesn't sound like anything but a futile attempt of being somewhere.
What is the sudden path? What does that have to do with what is, presently, at any given moment? Isn't any path something you do, engage in? What does that have to do with your present experience of the body?

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6706
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Astus » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:56 pm

Anonymous X wrote:What is the sudden path? What does that have to do with what is, presently, at any given moment? Isn't any path something you do, engage in? What does that have to do with your present experience of the body?
"The self-nature is without error, without stupidity, and without disruption. In moment after moment of thought, prajñā illuminates, constantly transcending the characteristics of dharmas. Independent and autonomous, he apprehends everything—how could there be any positing? The self-nature becomes enlightened itself, sudden enlightenment and sudden cultivation. There is no gradual progression. Therefore, one does not posit all the dharmas. The dharmas are quiescent—how could there be a progression?"
(Platform Sutra, ch 8, BDK ed, p 75)

"If one comprehends the mind and the objects, then false thinking is not created again. When there is no more false thinking, that is acceptance of the non-arising of all dharma. Originally it exists and it is present now, irrespective of cultivation of the Way and sitting in meditation. Not cultivating and not sitting is the Tathagata's pure meditation."
(Record of Mazu, in Sun-Face Buddha, p 68)

Q: What method must be practiced to attain liberation?
A: Only by practicing the Dharma of Sudden Enlightenment can we attain liberation.
Q: What is Sudden Enlightenment?
A: "Sudden" means instantly stopping false thought. "Enlightenment" means [awareness] that one attains nothing.

(Dazhu Huihai: Treatise On Entering The Tao of Sudden Enlightenment)

"Question: What is the essential method for sudden enlightenment in the great vehicle?
The master said,
You all should first put an end to all involvements and lay to rest all concerns; do not remember or recollect anything at all, whether good or bad, mundane or transcendental - do not engage in thoughts. Let go of body and mind, set them free.
With mind like wood or stone, not explaining anything with the mouth, mind not going anywhere, then the mind ground becomes like space, wherein the sun of wisdom naturally appears. It is as though the clouds had opened and the sun emerged."
...
"Question: How can one attain a mind which is like wood or stone in the presence of all situations?
The master said,
All various things have never of themselves spoken of emptiness; nor do they themselves speak of form, and they do not speak of right, wrong, defilement, or purity. Nor is there mind which binds and fetters people; it is just because people themselves give rise to vain and arbitrary attachments and that they create so many kinds of understanding, produce so many kinds of opinion, and give rise to so many various loves and fears.
Just understand that the many things do not originate of themselves; all of them come into existence from one’s own single mental impulse of imagination mistakenly clinging to appearances. If you know that mind and objects fundamentally do not contact each other, you will be set free on the spot. Each of the various things is in a state of quiescence right where it is; this very place is the site of enlightenment."

(Extensive Record of Baizhang, in Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 77-78, 79)

"No-mind refers to the absence of all [states of ] mind. ... This mind is the mind of no-mind. Transcending all characteristics, there is yet no difference between sentient beings and Buddhas. If you can just [attain] no-mind, then that is the ultimate [state of enlightenment]. If a trainee does not instantly [attain] no-mind but spends successive eons in cultivation, he will never achieve enlightenment. He will be fettered by the meritorious practices of the three vehicles and will not attain liberation."
...
"To simply right now suddenly comprehend that one’s own mind is fundamentally Buddha, without there being a single dharma one can attain and without there being a single practice one can cultivate—this is the insurpassable enlightenment, this is the Buddha of suchness."

(Huangbo: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed., p 15, 16; 20)

"One thought of doubt in your mind is Māra. But if you realize that the ten thousand dharmas never come into being, that mind is like a phantom, that not a speck of dust nor a single thing exists, that there is no place that is not clean and pure—this is Buddha. Thus Buddha and Māra are simply two states, one pure, the other impure.
In my view there is no Buddha, no sentient beings, no past, no present. Anything attained was already attained—no time is needed. There is nothing to practice, nothing to realize, nothing to gain, nothing to lose. Throughout all time there is no other dharma than this. ‘If one claims there’s a dharma surpassing this, I say that it’s like a dream, like a phantasm.’ This is all I have to teach."

(Record of Linji, p 12-13, tr Sasaki)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:33 am

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:What is the sudden path? What does that have to do with what is, presently, at any given moment? Isn't any path something you do, engage in? What does that have to do with your present experience of the body?
"The self-nature is without error, without stupidity, and without disruption. In moment after moment of thought, prajñā illuminates, constantly transcending the characteristics of dharmas. Independent and autonomous, he apprehends everything—how could there be any positing? The self-nature becomes enlightened itself, sudden enlightenment and sudden cultivation. There is no gradual progression. Therefore, one does not posit all the dharmas. The dharmas are quiescent—how could there be a progression?"
(Platform Sutra, ch 8, BDK ed, p 75)

"If one comprehends the mind and the objects, then false thinking is not created again. When there is no more false thinking, that is acceptance of the non-arising of all dharma. Originally it exists and it is present now, irrespective of cultivation of the Way and sitting in meditation. Not cultivating and not sitting is the Tathagata's pure meditation."
(Record of Mazu, in Sun-Face Buddha, p 68)

Q: What method must be practiced to attain liberation?
A: Only by practicing the Dharma of Sudden Enlightenment can we attain liberation.
Q: What is Sudden Enlightenment?
A: "Sudden" means instantly stopping false thought. "Enlightenment" means [awareness] that one attains nothing.

(Dazhu Huihai: Treatise On Entering The Tao of Sudden Enlightenment)

"Question: What is the essential method for sudden enlightenment in the great vehicle?
The master said,
You all should first put an end to all involvements and lay to rest all concerns; do not remember or recollect anything at all, whether good or bad, mundane or transcendental - do not engage in thoughts. Let go of body and mind, set them free.
With mind like wood or stone, not explaining anything with the mouth, mind not going anywhere, then the mind ground becomes like space, wherein the sun of wisdom naturally appears. It is as though the clouds had opened and the sun emerged."
...
"Question: How can one attain a mind which is like wood or stone in the presence of all situations?
The master said,
All various things have never of themselves spoken of emptiness; nor do they themselves speak of form, and they do not speak of right, wrong, defilement, or purity. Nor is there mind which binds and fetters people; it is just because people themselves give rise to vain and arbitrary attachments and that they create so many kinds of understanding, produce so many kinds of opinion, and give rise to so many various loves and fears.
Just understand that the many things do not originate of themselves; all of them come into existence from one’s own single mental impulse of imagination mistakenly clinging to appearances. If you know that mind and objects fundamentally do not contact each other, you will be set free on the spot. Each of the various things is in a state of quiescence right where it is; this very place is the site of enlightenment."

(Extensive Record of Baizhang, in Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 77-78, 79)

"No-mind refers to the absence of all [states of ] mind. ... This mind is the mind of no-mind. Transcending all characteristics, there is yet no difference between sentient beings and Buddhas. If you can just [attain] no-mind, then that is the ultimate [state of enlightenment]. If a trainee does not instantly [attain] no-mind but spends successive eons in cultivation, he will never achieve enlightenment. He will be fettered by the meritorious practices of the three vehicles and will not attain liberation."
...
"To simply right now suddenly comprehend that one’s own mind is fundamentally Buddha, without there being a single dharma one can attain and without there being a single practice one can cultivate—this is the insurpassable enlightenment, this is the Buddha of suchness."

(Huangbo: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed., p 15, 16; 20)

"One thought of doubt in your mind is Māra. But if you realize that the ten thousand dharmas never come into being, that mind is like a phantom, that not a speck of dust nor a single thing exists, that there is no place that is not clean and pure—this is Buddha. Thus Buddha and Māra are simply two states, one pure, the other impure.
In my view there is no Buddha, no sentient beings, no past, no present. Anything attained was already attained—no time is needed. There is nothing to practice, nothing to realize, nothing to gain, nothing to lose. Throughout all time there is no other dharma than this. ‘If one claims there’s a dharma surpassing this, I say that it’s like a dream, like a phantasm.’ This is all I have to teach."

(Record of Linji, p 12-13, tr Sasaki)
Is this really any different from what I've been saying? I agree with all of the above, but don't see any 'path', Buddha, or self-nature.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6706
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Astus » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:16 am

Anonymous X wrote:Is this really any different from what I've been saying? I agree with all of the above, but don't see any 'path', Buddha, or self-nature.
That's the point, it is not a path in the sense of going somewhere stage by stage, but a realisation. Hence I said that its main character is arriving directly at wisdom.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:38 am

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:Is this really any different from what I've been saying? I agree with all of the above, but don't see any 'path', Buddha, or self-nature.
That's the point, it is not a path in the sense of going somewhere stage by stage, but a realisation. Hence I said that its main character is arriving directly at wisdom.
Then why do you refer to the quotes instead of your own wisdom? Why clothe it in 'old clothes' from the 'memory bin'? You are not from China and you are not any of those people whom you referenced nor live in the same times. The realization must be your own, happening in your body complex, not a re-ification of another's words.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6706
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Astus » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:36 am

Anonymous X wrote:Then why do you refer to the quotes instead of your own wisdom?
Those are words from canonised texts, thus they are more definitive in Chan then whatever I'd write on my own.
The realization must be your own, happening in your body complex, not a re-ification of another's words.
It doesn't matter what my realisation is, since on a forum there are just words.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Sudden Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:43 am

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:Then why do you refer to the quotes instead of your own wisdom?
Those are words from canonised texts, thus they are more definitive in Chan then whatever I'd write on my own.
The realization must be your own, happening in your body complex, not a re-ification of another's words.
It doesn't matter what my realisation is, since on a forum there are just words.
Kill the Buddha, if you see him! How shocking this was to me when I first encountered these words 50 years ago. Little did I realize what it meant.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests