Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

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zenman
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Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by zenman » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:02 pm

Hallo

I once read that Hakuin had 18 (if I recal correct) kenshos, according to his own words. I've tried to find where he said this. Any idea where I can find this piece of information?

Thanks

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Meido
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Re: Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by Meido » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:24 pm

Check out Waddell's translation of Wild Ivy, in the third chapter page 64 of the 1999 edition:
After a month of this i still had not experienced a single pang of hunger. On the contrary my body and mind were both fired with a great surge of spirit and resolve. My nights were zazen. My days were sutra recitation. I never let up. During this period I experienced small satoris and large satoris in numbers beyond count. How many times did I jump up and jubilantly dance around, oblivious of all else! I no longer had any doubts at all about Ta-hui's talk of 18 great satoris and countless small ones. How grievously sad that people today have discarded this way of kensho as if it were dirt!
~ Meido
Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

zenman
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Re: Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by zenman » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:51 pm

Oh, great. Thank you Meido.

Temicco
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Re: Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by Temicco » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:41 am

It's worth noting that the narrative about Dahui's kenshos that Hakuin relates is problematic; it started at least a century earlier with Zhuhong, but Heine and Wright note in Zen Masters that "Since Dahui tends in his yulu collections to downplay these earlier partial glimpses as based on mistaken ways of investigating gongan, stories about them do not strongly support the image of Dahui created by Zhuhong." (106). The idea of them being kenshos at all is a later invention.
"It is just a matter of never letting there be even a moment's interruption in your awareness of your real nature."
--Yuanwu Keqin

"As long as you let go and entrust with belief, your daily life itself can be meditation."
--Daehaeng Kun Sunim

Matylda
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Re: Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by Matylda » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:34 pm

Temicco wrote:It's worth noting that the narrative about Dahui's kenshos that Hakuin relates is problematic; it started at least a century earlier with Zhuhong, but Heine and Wright note in Zen Masters that "Since Dahui tends in his yulu collections to downplay these earlier partial glimpses as based on mistaken ways of investigating gongan, stories about them do not strongly support the image of Dahui created by Zhuhong." (106). The idea of them being kenshos at all is a later invention.
It is not a point whether Hakuin story of Daie is problematic or not.. in zen historical accuracy is not most important.. What matters is genuine experience and realization of Hakuin and other masters, brought to us today as an example of the path.. Hakuin was very precise in his narration about his practice and experiences. Who cares whether Daie Soko had or had not all big or small satoris? Does any of academics can liberate us from suffering? Can any academic work, even most outstnding bring us closer to enlightenment? Conceptual thinking and analyses is wothless in zen.. it became popular in modern world but it does not reflect zen spirit or zen fact.

Main objective of zen practice is kensho, satori, shikan taza.. all the rest belongs to the world of human confusion. Even most skillful academic science about zen.

Temicco
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Re: Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by Temicco » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:46 pm

Matylda wrote:
Temicco wrote:It's worth noting that the narrative about Dahui's kenshos that Hakuin relates is problematic; it started at least a century earlier with Zhuhong, but Heine and Wright note in Zen Masters that "Since Dahui tends in his yulu collections to downplay these earlier partial glimpses as based on mistaken ways of investigating gongan, stories about them do not strongly support the image of Dahui created by Zhuhong." (106). The idea of them being kenshos at all is a later invention.
It is not a point whether Hakuin story of Daie is problematic or not.. in zen historical accuracy is not most important.. What matters is genuine experience and realization of Hakuin and other masters, brought to us today as an example of the path.. Hakuin was very precise in his narration about his practice and experiences. Who cares whether Daie Soko had or had not all big or small satoris? Does any of academics can liberate us from suffering? Can any academic work, even most outstnding bring us closer to enlightenment? Conceptual thinking and analyses is wothless in zen.. it became popular in modern world but it does not reflect zen spirit or zen fact.

Main objective of zen practice is kensho, satori, shikan taza.. all the rest belongs to the world of human confusion. Even most skillful academic science about zen.
It is hugely important. If Hakuin's experiences are not in line with the experiences conveyed in earlier Zen literature, then the validity or nature of his enlightenment and thus his entire presentation of Zen are suspect.

Nobody before Zhuhong ever discussed things this way. It is a later Rinzai invention. From what I have seen, though, even Torei's description of kensho is more in line with the earlier presentations, so I'm not sure what's going on with Hakuin.

Being flippant towards academia is ridiculous.
"It is just a matter of never letting there be even a moment's interruption in your awareness of your real nature."
--Yuanwu Keqin

"As long as you let go and entrust with belief, your daily life itself can be meditation."
--Daehaeng Kun Sunim

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Meido
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Re: Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by Meido » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:29 pm

Just to clarify, are you saying that the idea of having more than one awakening experience, and with varying depths, is suspect and a later invention? Or more specifically, just that there is some mistaken idea of what Dahui experienced that was later perpetuated?

Regarding Torei: actually in Shumon Mujintoron he describes his own experience in which he, though without doubt regarding the initial awakening, realized his functioning was not seamlessly free within activity. Going into seclusion to practice intensively, he says he subsequently had 89 small satori experiences, before finally arriving at a final clarification by means of which he could grasp Hakuin's state.

From a practice standpoint there is certainly an understanding of what Hakuin and Torei are describing with this talk of 18 or 89 experiences. Leaving aside the fact that the post-kensho training of embodiment is itself one long repetition/upwelling/re-visiting of the original recognition, there is also the sudden feeling of release that occurs periodically with the dismantling or dissolving of habitual delusion (jikke). The initial awakening (like the 6th Patriarch's experienced when hearing lines from the Diamond Sutra spoken aloud), as well as a decisive final awakening (like the 6th Patriarch experienced later, as did Torei) can be differentiated from these minor experiences of something dropping away. So they are the same, and not the same.

In other words, when Hakuin describes having 18 such experiences, or Torei 89, there is no confusion to a practitioner regarding what they are describing. From that perspective, an academic examination naturally doesn't have much use. That is not to say that academic examination is totally useless. It is to say that the validity of Hakuin's description of the fruition of Zen practice is not going to be confirmed thereby. It is confirmed by practitioners who continue to have the experiences that he, and Torei, described.

~ Meido
Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

Temicco
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Re: Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by Temicco » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:35 pm

Meido wrote:Just to clarify, are you saying that the idea of having more than one awakening experience, and with varying depths, is suspect and a later invention? Or more specifically, just that there is some mistaken idea of what Dahui experienced that was later perpetuated?
Most solidly the latter, but that also ties into how Hakuin legitimizes his experiences. So the former as well. It's not so much that the idea of varying depths or certainty of recognition is new -- it's not, other people talked about that -- but the idea of having more than one awakening experience such that a) they are all awakening experiences and not just some other kind of experience, b) the experiences are indeed quantified and discrete, and that is the focus of their description, and c) the experiences are even counted. I can not find descriptions like this before Zhuhong's questionable characterization of Dahui's experiences, so Hakuin's repetition of that account of Dahui as the basis for his own realization is uncomfortable.

Other people (e.g. Yuanwu, Bankei, even people in other traditions like Gampopa) tend to present it more as something that is realized once and for all, and even if it can be fallen out of, they do not focus whatsoever on the discrete instances of according with and falling out of it, but rather only on the idea of bringing it out and making it uninterrupted and unimpeded. Hakuin and Torei are the only people I've found that have descriptions with all three of the characteristics I mention above.

Also, it's also worth mentioning that this idea of post-kensho development of one's realization is something that is not seen too often in Southern Chan. It is discussed by Shenhui, Zongmi, Guishan, Yuanwu, and seemingly also by Hongzhi in one line of CTEF, but that is basically it. By contrast it's discussed a fair amount in Seon and in Rinzai. That's another curious discrepancy in the tradition. I personally am more interested in candid and plain teachings, which generally do discuss post-kensho training, but I thought this was a noteworthy curiosity.
Regarding Torei: actually in Shumon Mujintoron he describes his own experience in which he, though without doubt regarding the initial awakening, realized his functioning was not seamlessly free within activity. Going into seclusion to practice intensively, he says he subsequently had 89 small satori experiences, before finally arriving at a final clarification by means of which he could grasp Hakuin's state.
That's interesting; thanks for the reference. I'll have to read it. Torei then is the only person I'm aware of who presents both a more fluid picture of rigpa ("realized his functioning was not seamlessly free within activity" as you say, which lines up with his descriptions of post-kensho work in the Undying Lamp) and a discrete, quantified picture.
From a practice standpoint there is certainly an understanding of what Hakuin and Torei are describing with this talk of 18 or 89 experiences. Leaving aside the fact that the post-kensho training of embodiment is itself one long repetition/upwelling/re-visiting of the original recognition,
Yeah, that is the only explanation I've thought of that would reasonably account for their descriptions. It would make their experiences in line with the apparent facts of the matter, even if their descriptions are unusual.
there is also the sudden feeling of release that occurs periodically with the dismantling or dissolving of habitual delusion (jikke). The initial awakening (like the 6th Patriarch's experienced when hearing lines from the Diamond Sutra spoken aloud), as well as a decisive final awakening (like the 6th Patriarch experienced later, as did Torei) can be differentiated from these minor experiences of something dropping away. So they are the same, and not the same.
I've not heard of those ideas; is that a Rinzai teaching? If so, where can I read more? Bankei for instance would be a poster child for that (ikke while dying of tuberculosis, final decisive awakening with Dosha).
In other words, when Hakuin describes having 18 such experiences, or Torei 89, there is no confusion to a practitioner regarding what they are describing. From that perspective, an academic examination naturally doesn't have much use. That is not to say that academic examination is totally useless. It is to say that the validity of Hakuin's description of the fruition of Zen practice is not going to be confirmed thereby. It is confirmed by practitioners who continue to have the experiences that he, and Torei, described.
Of course. (My only qualm would be that it is nevertheless possible for Hakuin's experiences and teachings and the realization these may bring about to be an inaccurate window through which to judge earlier teachings. i.e. hypothetically, dharma heirs of Hakuin could think they're talking about the same enlightenment as Dahui, whereas Dahui might not have agreed. I don't really personally think that's the case, and it's a bit of a pointless mental exercise, but just mentioning it.)
"It is just a matter of never letting there be even a moment's interruption in your awareness of your real nature."
--Yuanwu Keqin

"As long as you let go and entrust with belief, your daily life itself can be meditation."
--Daehaeng Kun Sunim

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Meido
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Re: Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by Meido » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:03 pm

Thanks for the reply, Temmico.
Temicco wrote:Most solidly the latter, but that also ties into how Hakuin legitimizes his experiences. So the former as well. It's not so much that the idea of varying depths or certainty of recognition is new -- it's not, other people talked about that -- but the idea of having more than one awakening experience such that a) they are all awakening experiences and not just some other kind of experience, b) the experiences are indeed quantified and discrete, and that is the focus of their description, and c) the experiences are even counted. I can not find descriptions like this before Zhuhong's questionable characterization of Dahui's experiences, so Hakuin's repetition of that account of Dahui as the basis for his own realization is uncomfortable.

Other people (e.g. Yuanwu, Bankei, even people in other traditions like Gampopa) tend to present it more as something that is realized once and for all, and even if it can be fallen out of, they do not focus whatsoever on the discrete instances of according with and falling out of it, but rather only on the idea of bringing it out and making it uninterrupted and unimpeded. Hakuin and Torei are the only people I've found that have descriptions with all three of the characteristics I mention above.

Also, it's also worth mentioning that this idea of post-kensho development of one's realization is something that is not seen too often in Southern Chan. It is discussed by Shenhui, Zongmi, Guishan, Yuanwu, and seemingly also by Hongzhi in one line of CTEF, but that is basically it. By contrast it's discussed a fair amount in Seon and in Rinzai. That's another curious discrepancy in the tradition. I personally am more interested in candid and plain teachings, which generally do discuss post-kensho training, but I thought this was a noteworthy curiosity.
Well, I do think historical context is interesting (and I'm grateful for historians who are much more learned than I). In this case, it is true that Hakuin was consciously attempting to reform aspects of Zen practice in his day. Two aberrations he thought prevalent were a static quietism as a perversion of silent illumination teachings, and a sort of "everything's ok, nothing to do here" approach as a perversion of Bankei's teachings. He mourned what he considered a lessened emphasis on the importance of awakening as entrance to the path, and a denial of the exhaustive nature of post-awakening practice that he felt is, in reality, necessary for the vast majority of people.

So it may well be that his emphasis on ennumerating kensho was as strong as it was precisely because Zen in his view had fallen away from the "true" late Song Zen i.e. the teachings of the Chinese Chan masters like Bukko who came to Japan, and the early Japanese masters like Daio and Daito. Not only is kensho important, he stresses, but you have to revisit it again and again to clarify it. As you note, this is not an unusual teaching...but I expect we can often view Hakuin's emphasis not only in terms of his own experience, but simultaneously in light of his wish to renew and reform.

RE the "all at once completion" vs "awakening followed by gradual cultivation to embody" controversy, I personally think it's a red herring. No Zen teaching I have ever read discounts the possibility of complete awakening all at once; it's just so rare, though, that it's not worth talking about. Thus many teaching lines map out the post-kensho path. Even in the stories of the 6th patriarch and Rinzai, we see an initial awakening followed only later by a final confirmation. It's true that Huineng criticizes those who fetishize sitting as way to realize, but this is not a negation of practice. He also says that those wishing to realize fully must abide seamlessly in the samadhis of One Act and Uniformity. This is not different from what Hakuin and Torei say, or what Takuan states when he explains in Fudochi Shimmyo Roku what "immovable mind" really means.

Discussing the actual process of that practice to abide seamlessly, and recognizing that there is a stage within which one sometimes succeeds and at other times habitual dualistic seeing reasserts itself, is not to say that awakening is lacking at all, or that it comes and goes. Thus Torei talks about the continuation of right mindfulness, and the training to establish this being like a dragon playing with a jewel that sometimes grasps it, sometime loses it.
Temicco wrote:That's interesting; thanks for the reference. I'll have to read it. Torei then is the only person I'm aware of who presents both a more fluid picture of rigpa ("realized his functioning was not seamlessly free within activity" as you say, which lines up with his descriptions of post-kensho work in the Undying Lamp) and a discrete, quantified picture.
Undying Lamp is Shumon Mujintoron. Cleary's translation is titled The Undying Lamp of Zen. Another translation I'd recommend though is put out by the Zen Centre in London, titled Discourse on the Inexhaustible Lamp of the Zen School. This latter contains a lengthy passage-by-passage teisho commentary by Shaku Daibi, which not only unpacks Torei's text but also serves as a basic primer of Japanese Buddhism. Good stuff, clarfiying the entire Rinzai path as an expression of the Ekayana founded upon, and taking as the basis of practice, recognition of one's nature. It's available here: http://www.rinzaizencentre.org.uk/books.php
Temicco wrote:I've not heard of those ideas; is that a Rinzai teaching? If so, where can I read more? Bankei for instance would be a poster child for that (ikke while dying of tuberculosis, final decisive awakening with Dosha).
Jikke meaning not the experiences we discussed, but the traces/habit-energy (vasana) that the post-awakening practice serves to dissolve, since kensho itself does not necessarily cut those roots. Experiences during this ongoing process have been compared elsewhere to the sensation of removing heavy clothing, or it its culmination to a pure wind sweeping into the cargo hold of a ship that is finally opened.
Temicco wrote:Of course. (My only qualm would be that it is nevertheless possible for Hakuin's experiences and teachings and the realization these may bring about to be an inaccurate window through which to judge earlier teachings. i.e. hypothetically, dharma heirs of Hakuin could think they're talking about the same enlightenment as Dahui, whereas Dahui might not have agreed. I don't really personally think that's the case, and it's a bit of a pointless mental exercise, but just mentioning it.)
Means and language change. But I also do not personally think that the understanding of what Zen fruition means has changed much.

Best,

~ Meido
Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

tingdzin
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Re: Hakuin ja 18 kenshos

Post by tingdzin » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:48 am

:anjali:

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