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Koans and Kensho

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:48 pm
by steve_bakr
My question is about Koans and Kensho. I have solved a few Koans and received verification from a Zen master that because of distance I currently don't have access to. After solving these Koans, I discovered that I also knew the solutions to a lot of other related Koans. Although, there are many more Koans that I have not solved.

I had a strong desire to work on the Koan, "What comes thus?" But I already know the solution plus I can answer the checking question. But I am interested in solving this Koan in my flesh, bones, and marrow with a breakthrough and Kensho.

My question is whether or not that is possible when I already know the solution due to my work with other related Koans. I would also like to ask whether Kensho experiences keep happening as you continue working on Koans. Since my first breakthrough, I have had insights into some Koans but without an accompanying Kensho experience. I appreciate getting straightened out with my question.

Thank you.

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:35 am
by kirtu
steve_bakr wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:48 pm
My question is whether or not that is possible when I already know the solution due to my work with other related Koans. I would also like to ask whether Kensho experiences keep happening as you continue working on Koans. Since my first breakthrough, I have had insights into some Koans but without an accompanying Kensho experience. I appreciate getting straightened out with my question.
Some people have kensho experiences and some don't. What is kensho after all but a form of makyo (albeit a liberating makyo but the point is that one still hasn't breached the surface of water yet although one sees the light from the sun and recognizes it) ?

Kirt

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:33 pm
by KeithA
steve_bakr wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:48 pm
My question is about Koans and Kensho. I have solved a few Koans and received verification from a Zen master that because of distance I currently don't have access to. After solving these Koans, I discovered that I also knew the solutions to a lot of other related Koans. Although, there are many more Koans that I have not solved.

I had a strong desire to work on the Koan, "What comes thus?" But I already know the solution plus I can answer the checking question. But I am interested in solving this Koan in my flesh, bones, and marrow with a breakthrough and Kensho.

My question is whether or not that is possible when I already know the solution due to my work with other related Koans. I would also like to ask whether Kensho experiences keep happening as you continue working on Koans. Since my first breakthrough, I have had insights into some Koans but without an accompanying Kensho experience. I appreciate getting straightened out with my question.

Thank you.
My advice is to just keep going forward without checking what is happening along the way. I understand very much where you are coming from, though. I guess it's important to realize that Zen isn't about piling up experiences.

You can also safely disregard Kirtu's description of kensho as a kind of makkyo. That not accurate at all. :roll:

In fact, it's probably useful not to refer to kensho as an "experience" at all. Kensho is simply a temporary unveiling of the world as it is.

That's my 2 cents, anyway.

_/|\_

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:14 pm
by Anders
steve_bakr wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:48 pm
My question is about Koans and Kensho. I have solved a few Koans and received verification from a Zen master that because of distance I currently don't have access to. After solving these Koans, I discovered that I also knew the solutions to a lot of other related Koans. Although, there are many more Koans that I have not solved.

I had a strong desire to work on the Koan, "What comes thus?" But I already know the solution plus I can answer the checking question. But I am interested in solving this Koan in my flesh, bones, and marrow with a breakthrough and Kensho.

My question is whether or not that is possible when I already know the solution due to my work with other related Koans. I would also like to ask whether Kensho experiences keep happening as you continue working on Koans. Since my first breakthrough, I have had insights into some Koans but without an accompanying Kensho experience. I appreciate getting straightened out with my question.

Thank you.
My impression from what you write is: it doesn't really matter what koans you can or can't solve. It's not uncommon that with a breakthrough one is clear about many other koans. What matters is the work that solving them enacts on your body mind, how working with the koan can transform you. Koans are just devices. They don't mean a damn thing in and of themselves.

This is why in Chinese Buddhism it is not uncommon for practitioners to keep practicing the same huatou for decades after having broken through its gateless gate.

But really, for koan curriculum work, you should be working with a rinzai teacher on all this. From what I am told, the koan curriculum is quite expansive and subtle and many koans that seem to be addressing one aspect of embodied realisation may well be addressing something quite different. without a teacher who assigns it knowing your situation and knowing what that particular koan is intended to enact for you, it can well end up with a lot of blind alley work. Failing that, if you have already resolved the initial dharmakaya koan, you should have received instructions and have enough inner compass to continue working without a koan.

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:11 pm
by bokki
steve, please disregard my opinion here, and find your own
My question is about Koans and Kensho. I have solved a few Koans and received verification from a Zen master that because of distance I currently don't have access to. After solving these Koans, I discovered that I also knew the solutions to a lot of other related Koans. Although, there are many more Koans that I have not solved.

I had a strong desire to work on the Koan, "What comes thus?" But I already know the solution plus I can answer the checking question. But I am interested in solving this Koan in my flesh, bones, and marrow with a breakthrough and Kensho.

My question is whether or not that is possible when I already know the solution due to my work with other related Koans. I would also like to ask whether Kensho experiences keep happening as you continue working on Koans. Since my first breakthrough, I have had insights into some Koans but without an accompanying Kensho experience. I appreciate getting straightened out with my question.
''My question is about Koans and Kensho. I have solved a few Koans and received verification from a Zen master that because of distance I currently don't have access to. After solving these Koans, I discovered that I also knew the solutions to a lot of other related Koans. Although, there are many more Koans that I have not solved.''
imo only, yes that is how it goes, but , lol, u make me happy, brother
''I had a strong desire to work on the Koan, "What comes thus?" But I already know the solution plus I can answer the checking question. But I am interested in solving this Koan in my flesh, bones, and marrow with a breakthrough and Kensho.''

thats the way to go, bro

your last question, yes, koans may reveal themselfs witout a kensho. only realy tough problems can do it.....but now that i wrote that, i realise, im speaking wrong.. nevermind..u r speeding, dont stop.

ps. K good advice about kurt

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:00 am
by bokki
so, as it goes, one says one thing, then preaches from high up..lol, look, look
rinzai
Followers of the Way come from all over to study the Way. I myself in past years turned to monastic discipline and delved into the sutras and treatises. But later I realized that these are just medicines to cure the sickness of the world, expositions of surface matters. So finally I tossed them aside and sought the Way through Ch'an practice. Later I encountered an excellent friend and teacher, and then my Dharma eye at last became keen and bright. For the first time I could judge the old teachers of the world and tell you who was crooked and who was straight. But this understanding was not with me when my mother gave birth to me; I had to probe and polish and undergo experiences until one morning I could see clearly for myself.
so, next, if u read him saying nothing is needed, u r it, remember what he said here

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:48 am
by passel
I'm not trying to troll you, I'm just trying to offer another perspective. I've done koan work with Japanese teachers, good ones not rinky dink. But try to take passing koans with a grain of salt. You pass a koan when your teacher says you pass a koan. Full stop. And yeah, they do scale- if you've clicked on one, you can usually click on a bunch. It's easy to get cocky. Same goes for kensho, you've had a kensho when your teacher says you've had a kensho. It just means the teacher thinks your understanding of the situation is in accord with his- it's like according to him you're ripening nicely. That means you need to trust you teacher. Seriously ask yourself- who is this frak bozo that I'm letting decide if I'm enlightened or not. I'm Rinzai through and through but I'm with Soto's Kosho Uchiyama when he says, "Kensho is a game."

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:49 am
by passel
''I had a strong desire to work on the Koan, "What comes thus?" But I already know the solution plus I can answer the checking question. But I am interested in solving this Koan in my flesh, bones, and marrow with a breakthrough and Kensho.''

C-

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:56 am
by passel
A zen practitioner is just a blind man walking with a stick. A kensho it just tapping the ground once. You've got to make it your world

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:13 pm
by bokki
very good thoughts and words , passel
i would like to know about your training, if you would like to share. i dont.
it would be beneficial to us if Meido Roshi chimes in, and says , not a few, but a lot.
thnx, passel

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:35 pm
by passel
My training is a mutt’s training, but my first zen teacher was Genki Takabayashi Osho, then I studied under Sasaki Roshi for ten years. All in tandem with a bunch of other stuff. 20 year practice at this point, so, you know, disappointments galore.

Tsoknyi R. Is my main teacher now.

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:10 pm
by KeithA
Passel wrote:
...so, you know, disappointments galore.
That made me smile.

May we continue to be disappointed. :thumbsup:

_/|\_

Re: Koans and Kensho

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:17 pm
by bokki
in my ignorance,
and contrary to the sentiments that a kensho is another makyo,
not willing to debate that in detail,
may i ask....?
it is have been said, wherever, or by whom,
that there are levels of kensho,
from shallow, through to deep,
and commencing with satori,
to the end of
full enlightenment.
is this how you see it, is it viable,
is this how the ancestors practiced..
or is it a makyo, a laughable matter,
something that only fools indulge in,
showing their grasping,
reveling in maya, sin, and delusion
well, i do sometimes question, but,
only how people understand what is said to them.
i suppose, every one has his own soup to drink.