Thank you.maybay wrote:The step up from sravakayana doctrine to Mahayana is vast and also delicate to get right. You haven't nailed it. But when you do your courage and energy will be a great benefit to many beings. I am sure of that.
Gassho, Jundo
Thank you.maybay wrote:The step up from sravakayana doctrine to Mahayana is vast and also delicate to get right. You haven't nailed it. But when you do your courage and energy will be a great benefit to many beings. I am sure of that.
Instead of "answering" to the statement of a Mahasiddha and betraying your complete lack of realisation, it would probably be better for you to keep your mouth shut and (at the very least) try and understand what they are saying. If your ego permits it, that is...My introduction to Buddhism was via Zen practice, back then I also thought that to "be" Zen all you had to do was counter every statement with an opposite while couching it in a type of prose/poetry.
Hello,Sherab Dorje wrote:Like I said to you in another thread:Instead of "answering" to the statement of a Mahasiddha and betraying your complete lack of realisation, it would probably be better for you to keep your mouth shut and (at the very least) try and understand what they are saying. If your ego permits it, that is...My introduction to Buddhism was via Zen practice, back then I also thought that to "be" Zen all you had to do was counter every statement with an opposite while couching it in a type of prose/poetry.
Nobody said it was, I was giving you the quote as an example of non-meditation as it exists outside of the Zen context...jundo cohen wrote:Zazen is not meditation
...but your paranoid persecution complex seems to have deceived you (again).and no deception is possible even though we are often deceived. About this, please do not be deceived.
Same as the "why" of Mahamudra being explained by Saraha.The "why" of Zazen is zazen.
Then why don't you shut up and listen?Do you know how to speak what cannot be spoken? Do you know that not speaking sometimes says so much?
Something with which you are well acquainted.However, sometimes not speaking is simply being tongue tied, and sometimes talking is just blah blah blah.
Seems to me you are deceiving yourself (again).Never any deception, a world of existence non-existence.
So stop trying so desperately to talk-the-talk and just walk-the-walk.There is nothing to perfect or even improve, no inner or outer, so let us set to work to fix ourselves and the world!
To this dumb ass simpleton it looks to me that you are now back peddling, but it's too late...Actually, sometimes to be a dumb ass simpleton is simply to be a dumb ass simpleton, and sometimes in Zen lingo to be a dumb and simple is to be incredibly wise!
Use the Greek word gnosis, it was invented by them to describe exactly what you are trying to say.Why? Sometimes "knowledge" (jnana?)
'ccept that you are (again) forgetting that there are two levels of truth....and mental complexity in ordinary worldly terms is worldly deception, to be without such tangled worldly knowledge and simplicity is a doorway to Wisdom.
For some reason, you've reminded me of Zazen-Yōjinki (Notes on what to be aware of in Zazen) by Keizan.Sherab Dorje wrote:Like I said to you in another thread:Instead of "answering" to the statement of a Mahasiddha and betraying your complete lack of realisation, it would probably be better for you to keep your mouth shut and (at the very least) try and understand what they are saying. If your ego permits it, that is...My introduction to Buddhism was via Zen practice, back then I also thought that to "be" Zen all you had to do was counter every statement with an opposite while couching it in a type of prose/poetry.
bdSitting is the way to clarify the ground of experiences and to rest at ease in your Actual Nature. This is called "the display of the Original Face" and "revealing the landscape of the basic ground".
Drop through this bodymind and you will be far beyond such forms as sitting or lying down. Beyond considerations of good or bad, transcend any divisions between usual people and sages, pass beyond the boundary between sentient beings and Buddha.
Lovely! Great Adept Keizan!barndoor wrote: If you're interested in Zazen and the discussion in this thread, "Zazen-Yōjinki" is a fabulous read http://www.wwzc.org/dharma-text/zazen-y ... ware-zazen.
Without any trace of motion or stillness ... beyond patterns of holy or profane, beyond confusion or wisdom ...Zazen is not based upon teaching, practice or realization; instead these three aspects are all contained within it. Measuring realization is based upon some notion of enlightenment—this is not the essence of zazen. Practice is based upon strenuous application—this is not the essence of zazen. Teaching is based upon freeing from evil and cultivating good—this is not the essence of zazen.
Teaching is found in Zen but it is not the usual teaching. Rather, it is a direct pointing, just expressing the Way, speaking with the whole body. Such words are without sentences or clauses. Where views end and concept is exhausted, the one word pervades the ten directions without setting up so much as a single hair. This is the true Teaching of the Buddhas and Awakened Ancestors.
Although we speak of "practice", it is not a practice that you can do. That is to say, the body does nothing, the mouth does not recite, the mind doesn't think things over, the six senses are left to their own clarity and unaffected. So this is not the sixteen stage practice of the hearers [the path of insight or darsanamarga into the four noble truths at four different levels]. Nor is it the practice of understanding the twelve nidanas of inter-dependent emergence of those whose practice is founded upon isolation. Nor is it the six perfections within numberless activities of the Bodhisattvas. It is without struggle at all so is called Awakening or enlightenment. Just rest in the Self-enjoyment Samadhi of all the Buddhas, wandering playfully in the four practices of peace and bliss of those open to Openness. This is the profound and inconceivable practice of Buddhas and Awakened Ancestors.
Although we speak of realization, this realization does not hold to itself as being "realization". This is practice of the supreme samadhi which is the knowing of unborn, unobstructed, and spontaneously arising Awareness. It is the door of luminosity which opens out onto the realization of Those Who Come Thus, born through the practice of the great ease. This goes beyond the patterns of holy and profane, goes beyond confusion and wisdom. This is the realization of unsurpassed enlightenment as our own nature.
Zazen is also not based upon discipline, practice, or wisdom. These three are all contained within it.
Discipline is usually understood as ceasing wrong action and eliminating evil. In zazen the whole thing is known to be non-dual. Cast off the numberless concerns and rest free from entangling yourself in the "Buddhist Way" or the "worldly way." Leave behind feelings about the path as well as your usual sentiments. When you leave behind all opposites, what can obstruct you? This is the formless discipline of the ground of mind.
Practice usually means unbroken concentration. Zazen is dropping the bodymind, leaving behind confusion and understanding. Unshakeable, without activity, it is not deluded but still like an idiot, a fool. Like a mountain, like the ocean. Without any trace of motion or stillness. This practice is no-practice because it has no object to practice and so is called great practice.
Wisdom is usually understood to be clear discernment. In zazen, all knowledge vanishes of itself. Mind and discrimination are forgotten forever. The wisdom-eye of this body has no discrimination but is clear seeing of the essence of Awakening. From the beginning it is free of confusion, cuts off concept, and open and clear luminosity pervades everywhere. This wisdom is no-wisdom; because it is traceless wisdom, it is called great wisdom.
The Teaching that the Buddhas have presented all throughout their lifetimes are just this discipline, practice, and wisdom. In zazen there is no discipline that is not maintained, no practice that is uncultivated, no wisdom that is unrealized. Conquering the demons of confusion, attaining the Way, turning the wheel of the Dharma and returning to tracelessness all arise from the power of this. Siddhis and inconceivable activities, emanating luminosity and proclaiming the Teachings—all of these are present in this zazen. Penetrating Zen is zazen.
Paranoid persecution complex. I was/am not judging Soto Zen, I was agreeing with the "practice" of Zazen and showing you that parallel "techniques" (or non-techniques to be more exact) exist in other (Mahayana simpleton) traditions too. Your clouded mental functioning is constantly deceiving you into perceiving attacks where no attacks actually exist. If you keep up this mental attitude you will be destined for rebirth as an Asura. 100% guaranteed.jundo cohen wrote:Perhaps you do not understand much about Soto Zen, are judging from the standpoint of your own tradition which you apparently consider the standard and final word?
It is not in the least bit confusing to me.Perhaps you should learn and try to come to understand Soto Zen. After all, this is a discussion of Soto Zen, so I understand that it may be confusing to you if you come at it through the lens of your own assumptions.
I would want you to judge my interpretations, if they were mistaken. Your constructive criticism would be more than welcome.I would not try to judge your interpretations no matter how partial, incomplete or incorrect they may seem from here.
Seems to me that you miss the point: there is no "your" way and "my" way, there is Dharma and there is drama and you'll be receiving your award shortly in the mail.The little poem you quote seems to miss the point in our way.
For example, in our way, we speak of two levels of truth that stand apart, fully interpenetrate, exchange places, are fully and whole embodying each other, where "one truths" stands alone expressing the whole whole universe, dance with each other, are five or six truths, are truth-non-truths, your truth and my truth, a Buddha's truth beyond truth, a truth of Buddha beyond Buddha ...
Hi Sherab Dorje,if they were mistaken. Your constructive criticism would be more than welcome.
Thank you for the link. A beautiful and well presented teaching!!!barndoor wrote:For some reason, you've reminded me of Zazen-Yōjinki (Notes on what to be aware of in Zazen) by Keizan.
If you're interested in Zazen and the discussion in this thread, "Zazen-Yōjinki" is a fabulous read http://www.wwzc.org/dharma-text/zazen-y ... ware-zazen
OrMind bound, you're bound -
when it's free, you're free,
no doubt;
What binds the stupid,
quickly and fully frees
the wise.
AndReleasing thought
and breath,
[which are] like unsteady horses,
dwell in your innate nature,
and be motionless.
Good old Saraha, you'd think he was with "your" team and not "mine" with the things he says!Where comprehension is destroyed,
thought dies,
and pride is split;
there the utmost art,
of magic [is] made -
why bind it [with] meditation?
Ha! You should see me when I am not being civil!jundo cohen wrote:I believe that if you search the archives of Dharma Wheel, you fill find that I have never told anyone to "keep their mouth shut" based on their "complete lack of realization". Oh my. You sound upset. It is not my habit to speak to anyone like that, even folks who might hold another point of view. Best to be civil.
So transcend your identity instead of just being contrary, contrariness arises as a consequence of identity/identification: This in contrast to that, My view in contrast to your view, ad nauseum... If I remember correctly, which I do, answering with silence is a very Zen way of dealing with things. Try it, it will work wonders for you.By the way, if you think that I am answering in "opposites", then you do not understand perhaps that this is all about the transcendence of identity and opposition in a world of opposites. That is a kind of lack of realization perhaps?
Generally I sit on my ass. But when it's off grazing I sit on my arse. Sometimes I sit on my arse on my ass. But now we are digressing!Depends where one sits.
Of course you have Mahasiddhas in the Soto Zen tradition. I am 100% sure of it. Do you know what a Mahasiddha is? The Soto Zen tradition was imported from China to Japan in the 13th Century, it wouldn't surpise me if there was a cross-fertilisation of ideas between the Chan predecessors of Soto and the Indian Mahasiddha current. The similarities are too striking to be random.I am not sure why one would answer a Mahasiddha in a discussion of Soto Zen anyway. I don't believe we have those, but I am sure they are very nice people. Was there one here? What did they ask?
I can see parallels because both paths are Mahayana Buddhism and thus share many basic perspective, and I am sure you cherish and find great nurture in this piece. You obviously are very familiar with the insider meanings and the obscure ways of expression. I am sure there is much common ground. However, it seems a bit of a reach to say this is really Zen teaching, especially with the talk of bliss, gurus, rejection of meditation and the like.If going naked means release,
then the dog and the jackal
must have it;
if baldness is perfection,
then a young girl’s bottom
must have it.
...
That’s what’s incanted,
that’s what is murmured,
and spoken
in treatise and Pura¯nfia.
There is no seeing
that doesn’t perceive it—
but it’s witnessed solely
at the precious guru’s feet.
...
Without meditation,
beyond all renouncing,
living at home
with your wife—
if enjoying things intently
doesn’t free you,
Saraha says,
how can consciousness be free?
...
No tantra, no mantra,
no reflection or recollection—
Hey, fool! All this
is the cause of error.
Mind is unstained—
don’t taint it with meditation;
you’re living in bliss:
don’t torment yourself
,,,
Where senses subside,
and self-nature
cannot stand—
that, you hick, is the finest innate:
ask for it clearly—
it’s got from the guru.
...
When wind and fire
and the mighty power have stopped,
at the time when nectar flows,
winds enter the mind.
When through four absorptions
they enter a single abode,
then utmost great bliss
can’t be contained by space.
Seems to be???jundo cohen wrote:Well, this "Saraha’s Treasury of Couplets" does seem to be Buddhism, and Mahayana Buddhism...
He is talking about Jains and their praxis.If going naked means release,
then the dog and the jackal
must have it;
if baldness is perfection,
then a young girl’s bottom
must have it....
If you included the footnotes this would make perfect sense. Of course it requires the instruction of a teacher, but so does Zen.When wind and fire
and the mighty power have stopped,
at the time when nectar flows,
winds enter the mind.
When through four absorptions
they enter a single abode,
then utmost great bliss
can’t be contained by space.
Obviously you have not experienced kensho.However, it seems a bit of a reach to say this is really Zen teaching, especially with the talk of bliss...
What of Sosan then? Kansho? Nisshitsu? Sanno?gurus...
So now Zazen is meditation?...rejection of meditation and the like.
You seem very upset, and I apologize for being the cause of that.Sherab Dorje wrote: ,,,
I smell another topic for discussion coming. For now, I am reminded of the discussions we've had before on the role of the teacher. In this post and some ensuing ones...jundo cohen wrote:it seems a bit of a reach to say this is really Zen teaching, especially with the talk of bliss, gurus, rejection of meditation and the like.
I am not upset and I don't need your condescending pity.jundo cohen wrote:You seem very upset, and I apologize for being the cause of that.
Hi Sherab Dorje,Sherab Dorje wrote:Obviously you have not experienced kensho.jundo cohen wrote:]However, it seems a bit of a reach to say this is really Zen teaching, especially with the talk of bliss...
I am sure that this is all very powerful for those who practice in such way, but Shikantaza does not speak of bliss and ecstacy and rapture. Such will happen, yet we open the hand of thought and let such go with all the rest.take that and perfect
the utmost great bliss
footnote: utmost great bliss: One of the most important characteristics of the enlightened mind, the innate, or one’s inmost nature. ... Tantric Buddhism is particularly notable for its description of the ultimate as blissful (see, e.g., HT 1:8, 44, ST 33:22) and for cultivating techniques that stimulate and utilize bliss—including sexual bliss—to attain that ultimate. “Bliss” (Apa. suha; Skt. sukha) is roughly synonymous with such terms as ecstasy (Skt. a¯nanda), delight (Skt. ra¯ga), and rapture (Skt. sura).
Eating and drinking,
enjoying bliss,
ever filling the cakras
again and again:
footnote: filling the cakras: Most likely the tantric yogic process of drawing energies (Skt. pra¯nfia) into the cakras, or nodes, that lie at the intersections of major channels in the subtle body that is within, and fundamental to, our coarse physical body .... It is through such processes that various drops are activated and controlled, and blisses and ecstasies experienced.
at the time when nectar flows,
winds enter the mind
footnote: Most likely, the time when one moves the blissful drop that resides at the crown cakra up and down through the cakras of the central channel, and experiences various degrees of ecstasy, which must be conjoined with a realization of emptiness. The absorption of various coarse physical elements and mental events is a prerequisite for the ecstasies.
This is a kind of subtle "Joy" or "Bliss" that simply need not feel like "joy" or "bliss" in ordinary terms of those worlds, but is the Wholeness and Peace and Allowing which manifests even in Samsara's hardest and ugliest moments, our faces covered in tears and howling with loss of a broken heart.[In Zazen], sometimes a sense of joy and rapture may result, sometimes tears and total distraction amid life. Do not insist that any such mental state be permanent, and joy, tears, rapture and distraction are each just emptiness, the ever-always-changing flowing permanently/impermanently flowing flowing flowing. Go with the flow, the flowing just flowing! Allow joyful times to be joyful, tears to be times of tears. This is a kind of Joy which embraces whole little human judgments of "happy and sad". What shines before, beyond and right at the heart of each and all of that?
Shikantaza is a "letting go to the bones" (as a friend expressed elsewhere today), dropping goals and demands to the marrow and beyond. We drop need to feel happy, blissful, peaceful and any other way. Yet, the "method to the madness" (many thus call it a "non-method") is that one thus finds Peace and Happiness which can only be found in such way of finding by not looking ... a Peace (Big "P") that holds and embraces all of life's broken pieces, a Joy (Big "J") that is Joyous right through/beyond/in/precisely as all life's small human judgments of joy or sadness, smiles and tears (a Joy so Joyous that one need not even feel (small j) "joyous" all the time, savored right amid even our sometime ordinary human grief at loss and tears!)
Thus, it is very unique among forms of meditation in which (like most of our goal and attainment driven day-to-day lives) we are trying to get something or get some place, trying to attain some pleasure or treasure. Shikantaza allows one to attain the Treasure (Big "T") right in hand all along by dropping the need to find it over some distant hill. All day, we run after this, and run away from that ... and do not know how to just sit, complete with not feeling a need of running and no place in need of going. Body-Mind Drop Away as the clutching and thirst of body and mind drop away, together with our separation from the surrounding world we are always clutching at or pushing away. The Self-Life-World presents as Whole, without division and friction. Sitting Itself is the only action needed, the only place to be, in that moment and action of sitting ... nothing lacking.
This is not about attaining some blissful state.
We are not looking for a trippy trip either, which you would know if you were actually more invested in conversing than trying to sell your wares as the Resident Zen Expert.In Shikantaza Zazen, we sit with the eyes open because we never leave this world and life behind. Our mind is caught by nothing,, yet shuts out nothing. Oh yes, we learn to see through this life and world, as real yet a dream, a phantasm, a dew drop. And, yes, in our Zazen we will often encounter various tastes of rapture or ecstasy, each its own. However (and this is the point of divergence), we do not make the attaining of deep absorbed states, ecstatic states, bliss states, visions, trances or the like the central point or goal of practice. We are not looking for a trippy trip,
Oh yeah. how do you know that, and what IS he talking about then?So, at the very least, "Saraha" does not seem to be talking about experiences of "Bliss and Ecstacy" that relate.
Hello Johnny,Johnny Dangerous wrote:Maybe you should actually read the other thread on "bliss", instead of going off about bliss, when clearly you are working with a different definition of it than anyone else. Obviously, no Buddhist teachings talk about Samsaric "bliss" as a goal, so talking as if they do is just a straw man.