Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
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Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
...or do Soto practitioners also practice Samatha and Vipassana?
Thanks,
Thanks,
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
no.. there is no samatha or vipassana in soto.. shikan taza is number 1.. there could be other form of zazen practice including koan, but no s/v..Justmeagain wrote:...or do Soto practitioners also practice Samatha and Vipassana?
Thanks,
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
But isnt shikantaza a form of vipassana and shamatha? I mean it does achieve the same state and afaik it is not that much different, or is it?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
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For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Sort of what I thought. Not so much Samatha, but unless you're asleep, awareness of everything that arises and falls away is inevitable.Miroku wrote:But isnt shikantaza a form of vipassana and shamatha? I mean it does achieve the same state and afaik it is not that much different, or is it?
I think this process is seen by som Soto folks as a practice rather than a natural process that can be witnessed.
Maybe......?
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
What would it mean to be a "Soto practitioner" without actually practising it? Sounds like being a fisherman without ever fishing.Justmeagain wrote:...or do Soto practitioners also practice Samatha and Vipassana?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Do you have a source or an example of what you are talking about?Justmeagain wrote:Sort of what I thought. Not so much Samatha, but unless you're asleep, awareness of everything that arises and falls away is inevitable.Miroku wrote:But isnt shikantaza a form of vipassana and shamatha? I mean it does achieve the same state and afaik it is not that much different, or is it?
I think this process is seen by som Soto folks as a practice rather than a natural process that can be witnessed.
Maybe......?
Don't worry about "maybes" and other speculations and time-wasters. The important question here is whether you've found a teacher you can work with or not.
For the purpose of this thread, it seems to me that your question has been answered:
Matylda wrote:
no.. there is no samatha or vipassana in soto.. shikan taza is number 1.. there could be other form of zazen practice including koan, but no s/v..
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
So then, are instructions on how to practice shikan taza 只管打坐 given right from the beginning in Sōtō Zen? Isn't there any influence of Tiāntāi Zhì Yǐ 天台智顗 and his approach of zhǐguān 止観 in Sōtō Zen at all?Matylda wrote:no.. there is no samatha or vipassana in soto.. shikan taza is number 1.. there could be other form of zazen practice including koan, but no s/v..Justmeagain wrote:...or do Soto practitioners also practice Samatha and Vipassana?
Thanks,
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
WuMing wrote:So then, are instructions on how to practice shikan taza 只管打坐 given right from the beginning in Sōtō Zen? Isn't there any influence of Tiāntāi Zhì Yǐ 天台智顗 and his approach of zhǐguān 止観 in Sōtō Zen at all?Matylda wrote:no.. there is no samatha or vipassana in soto.. shikan taza is number 1.. there could be other form of zazen practice including koan, but no s/v..Justmeagain wrote:...or do Soto practitioners also practice Samatha and Vipassana?
Thanks,
Yeah....and that too!!
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Ok, well I guess thats what I was asking - is Soto Zen synonymous with Shikantaza only?Astus wrote:What would it mean to be a "Soto practitioner" without actually practising it? Sounds like being a fisherman without ever fishing.Justmeagain wrote:...or do Soto practitioners also practice Samatha and Vipassana?
Or to put it another way, does Soto Zen factor in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, Sattipatana, Jhana etc...I guess not.
I ask as if not this puts Soto Zen out on its own in terms of an MO (or lack of one were Shikantaza is concerned) like other schools with very specific practices like Nichiren chanting, Generation practices in Tantra and so forth.
_/|\_
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
I think that depends on whom you ask. It seems to me that the mainstream answer is yes.Justmeagain wrote:is Soto Zen synonymous with Shikantaza only?
Shikantaza is supposed to be a "perfect and complete" practice that includes the whole path. After all, it is the practice of enlightenment.Or to put it another way, does Soto Zen factor in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, Sattipatana, Jhana etc...I guess not.
"The zazen I speak of is not meditation practice. It is simply the dharma gate of joyful ease, the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment."
(Fukanzazengi)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Of course it is different... shikan or s/v was well known to Dogen and later masters, and none of them pointed to shikan -s/v as similar to shikan taza, just opposite.Miroku wrote:But isnt shikantaza a form of vipassana and shamatha? I mean it does achieve the same state and afaik it is not that much different, or is it?
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
https://opendoorzencommunity.org/wp-con ... ischer.pdf
See Norman Fischer talking about what sounds identical to Burmese style Vipassana here...
See Norman Fischer talking about what sounds identical to Burmese style Vipassana here...
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Yes, it does. Fischer also uses descriptors developed by Chogyam Trungpa to explain meditation practice. But with that said...Justmeagain wrote:https://opendoorzencommunity.org/wp-con ... ischer.pdf
See Norman Fischer talking about what sounds identical to Burmese style Vipassana here...
...that is an explanation of Zazen. Are zazen and shikantaza the same?
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
This is rather non of shikan taza thing.. neither real explanation of zazen.. moreover even if one uses some oehter systems and teachers to expalin zazen it does not mean that is is real zazen instruction... I geuss there is very little of known in the West zazen instructions.. so people are forcesd to use intellectually some other available instructions unrelated to zazen..DGA wrote:Yes, it does. Fischer also uses descriptors developed by Chogyam Trungpa to explain meditation practice. But with that said...Justmeagain wrote:https://opendoorzencommunity.org/wp-con ... ischer.pdf
See Norman Fischer talking about what sounds identical to Burmese style Vipassana here...
...that is an explanation of Zazen. Are zazen and shikantaza the same?
as for zazen of course it is same as shikan taza.. there could be other zazen practices but in fact all are properly done in the way of shikan taza finally..
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
While I never got much explanation of what is shikantaza when I was involved in Zen, I will say that it basically sounds like what other teachers describe as the union of shamatha and vipaysana. If it's not, I'd love to know how/why it's different, other than the nomenclature used.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Shikan 止観.is the meditation, that the Tendai school does; it is Shi shamatha and kan vipassana. Dogen was a Tendai monk but I have no scholarly books with me that distinguish his later 只管 shikantaza (note the different characters(.
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Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
I think it's a mistake to try and intellectualise a simple practice - 'what is it?' 'what does it do?' - and so on. Next it becomes 'what do I get from it?' and so on, all of which are self-seeking questions. As I understand it, going on Suzuki-roshi's books, and also John Daido Loori, just sitting really is just sitting. All the questions about what it means or is, are simply the arising of thought. That is what we need to beware of, and not try and complicate or elaborate it.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Wayfarer wrote:I think it's a mistake to try and intellectualise a simple practice - 'what is it?' 'what does it do?' - and so on. Next it becomes 'what do I get from it?' and so on, all of which are self-seeking questions. As I understand it, going on Suzuki-roshi's books, and also John Daido Loori, just sitting really is just sitting. All the questions about what it means or is, are simply the arising of thought. That is what we need to beware of, and not try and complicate or elaborate it.
I disagree. what Shikantanza actually is matters quite a bit. If you don't understand what a practice does, or more accurately, what it -is-, you end up chasing romantic notions of practice, or slogans..instead of actually putting what you've studied into practice. I'm sure there are ranges of explaining such things from the crazily technical to poetic, but IMO rejecting understanding out of hand is a mistake.
There is a huge difference between wanting to understand the view of your practice, and objectifying or fetishizing it.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Shikantaza is just sitting.Johnny Dangerous wrote:While I never got much explanation of what is shikantaza when I was involved in Zen,
The issue is that in other schools shamatha has been identified and cultivated and labelled as shamatha. However in Zen generally people just say concentrate and they give methods for that principally breath counting (breath counting is provisional in Zen BTW). Later issues will come up and basically after concentration has been practiced pretty well, people will discuss their insight with their teacher. Of course this can happen on the first day.I will say that it basically sounds like what other teachers describe as the union of shamatha and vipaysana. If it's not, I'd love to know how/why it's different, other than the nomenclature used.
Vipashyana is also identified and in some schools practiced directly.
These identifications and labeling do not exist within Zen.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Most people take a lot of practice to get to just sitting.Matylda wrote: as for zazen of course it is same as shikan taza.. there could be other zazen practices but in fact all are properly done in the way of shikan taza finally..
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche