It's not 'rejecting understanding out of hand'. it is 'following the instructions'. No sitting ever takes place on Internet forums, anyway, all you see here are 'tangles, thickets, and writings of views', which is what this is.Johnny Dangerous wrote: I disagree. what Shikantanza actually is matters quite a bit. If you don't understand what a practice does, or more accurately, what it -is-, you end up chasing romantic notions of practice, or slogans..instead of actually putting what you've studied into practice. I'm sure there are ranges of explaining such things from the crazily technical to poetic, but IMO rejecting understanding out of hand is a mistake.
There is a huge difference between wanting to understand the view of your practice, and objectifying or fetishizing it.
Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
It's not for you to decide what conversations are fruitful for me, and you are not anyone's Zen teacher. If you're interested in continuing to talk on the subject, great. If not, don't expect me to take this stereotypical "just practice" comment seriously, not your job to shut down discussions you don't like.Wayfarer wrote:It's not 'rejecting understanding out of hand'. it is 'following the instructions'. No sitting ever takes place on Internet forums, anyway, all you see here are 'tangles, thickets, and writings of views', which is what this is.Johnny Dangerous wrote: I disagree. what Shikantanza actually is matters quite a bit. If you don't understand what a practice does, or more accurately, what it -is-, you end up chasing romantic notions of practice, or slogans..instead of actually putting what you've studied into practice. I'm sure there are ranges of explaining such things from the crazily technical to poetic, but IMO rejecting understanding out of hand is a mistake.
There is a huge difference between wanting to understand the view of your practice, and objectifying or fetishizing it.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Thanks Kirt, I know the terminology isn't used, that's not what I meant though, I mean insofar as Zen teachers describe what Shikantanza is supposed to "be", how is it different? When I practiced Soto, there were no real 'instructions' as such, we literally just sat.. and I gathered that was sort of the point. Still, it just seems like a pedagogical difference to me, which is why I'm asking.These identifications and labeling do not exist within Zen.
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Johnny Dangerous wrote:While I never got much explanation of what is shikantaza when I was involved in Zen, I will say that it basically sounds like what other teachers describe as the union of shamatha and vipaysana. If it's not, I'd love to know how/why it's different, other than the nomenclature used.
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Basically s/v is gradual approach, while shikan taza is not... it is why one needs very experienced teacher to get proper instructions, which are given mostly only in private.Justmeagain wrote:Johnny Dangerous wrote:While I never got much explanation of what is shikantaza when I was involved in Zen, I will say that it basically sounds like what other teachers describe as the union of shamatha and vipaysana. If it's not, I'd love to know how/why it's different, other than the nomenclature used.
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
The traditional Zen term is the unity of samadhi and prajna.Johnny Dangerous wrote:While I never got much explanation of what is shikantaza when I was involved in Zen, I will say that it basically sounds like what other teachers describe as the union of shamatha and vipaysana. If it's not, I'd love to know how/why it's different, other than the nomenclature used.
"Good friends, our teaching takes meditation and wisdom as its fundamental. Everyone, do not say in your delusion that meditation and wisdom are different."
(Platform Sutra, ch 4, BDK ed, p 41)
Dogen basically says the same by calling zazen practice-enlightenment.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Thank you for this. I should have said:Matylda wrote:This is rather non of shikan taza thing.. neither real explanation of zazen.. moreover even if one uses some oehter systems and teachers to expalin zazen it does not mean that is is real zazen instruction... I geuss there is very little of known in the West zazen instructions.. so people are forcesd to use intellectually some other available instructions unrelated to zazen..DGA wrote:Yes, it does. Fischer also uses descriptors developed by Chogyam Trungpa to explain meditation practice. But with that said...Justmeagain wrote:https://opendoorzencommunity.org/wp-con ... ischer.pdf
See Norman Fischer talking about what sounds identical to Burmese style Vipassana here...
...that is an explanation of Zazen. Are zazen and shikantaza the same?
as for zazen of course it is same as shikan taza.. there could be other zazen practices but in fact all are properly done in the way of shikan taza finally..
According to Fischer, this is an explanation of Zazen. Fischer does not mention shikantaza. Does his article represent the view of the Soto school generally, or only his view? I think the answer to that is clear.
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Dōgen elaborates it in his Shōbōgenzō. I haven't made a systematic reading of it yet. I am eager to do so. What a treasure.rory wrote:Shikan 止観.is the meditation, that the Tendai school does; it is Shi shamatha and kan vipassana. Dogen was a Tendai monk but I have no scholarly books with me that distinguish his later 只管 shikantaza (note the different characters(.
gassho
Rory
I can say that if you are familiar with Tendai Daishi's writings on meditation, you can't miss the difference with Dōgen.
http://www.bdkamerica.org/book/sh%C5%8D ... y-volume-i
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Where exactly? Briefly in the Bendowa he rejects the option of using Tendai or other methods for meditation.DGA wrote:Dōgen elaborates it in his Shōbōgenzō.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
I remember reading around in book 6, in which zazen is described.Astus wrote:Where exactly? Briefly in the Bendowa he rejects the option of using Tendai or other methods for meditation.DGA wrote:Dōgen elaborates it in his Shōbōgenzō.
My point is that Dogen's descriptions of meditation don't really look or feel (if you will) like the teachings of Zhiyi.
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Book 6? The BDK edition has 4 volumes.DGA wrote:I remember reading around in book 6, in which zazen is described.
Chan can be matched with Tiantai's sudden and perfect method of the neither sitting nor walking samadhi. Dogen's works are part of the mature Zen literature, so he uses lots of Chan lingo.My point is that Dogen's descriptions of meditation don't really look or feel (if you will) like the teachings of Zhiyi.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
my memory isn't perfect.Astus wrote:Book 6? The BDK edition has 4 volumes.DGA wrote:I remember reading around in book 6, in which zazen is described.
Yes, I think that's fair for Ch'an, and I think you are right about Dogen's writing style and diction. That doesn't address the question of whether shi kan and shikantaza are comparable.Chan can be matched with Tiantai's sudden and perfect method of the neither sitting nor walking samadhi. Dogen's works are part of the mature Zen literature, so he uses lots of Chan lingo.My point is that Dogen's descriptions of meditation don't really look or feel (if you will) like the teachings of Zhiyi.
I think Dogen is writing about something different from shi kan when he describes shikantaza. For starters, he wasn't a fool. If he wanted to discuss shi kan, he would have done so rather than developing a new concept to get his teaching across.
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
The only new thing about Dogen's approach to meditation that I can find is his focus on the physical posture. But as for what is to be done while seated, the matter of neither-thinking (hishiryo) and dropping body and mind (shinjin datsuraku), those are not different from prajnaparamita (non-abiding, no-thought, etc.).DGA wrote:I think Dogen is writing about something different from shi kan when he describes shikantaza. For starters, he wasn't a fool. If he wanted to discuss shi kan, he would have done so rather than developing a new concept to get his teaching across.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
There are some practices that are described as the unity of shamatha and vipaysana that are not really 'gradual' as such, so again, it really seems like a difference of nomenclature to me.Matylda wrote:Basically s/v is gradual approach, while shikan taza is not... it is why one needs very experienced teacher to get proper instructions, which are given mostly only in private.Justmeagain wrote:Johnny Dangerous wrote:While I never got much explanation of what is shikantaza when I was involved in Zen, I will say that it basically sounds like what other teachers describe as the union of shamatha and vipaysana. If it's not, I'd love to know how/why it's different, other than the nomenclature used.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Carl Bielefeldt in Dogen's Manual of Zen Meditation makes the point that Zhiyi's T'ien T'ai hsiao chih-kuan was the first popular meditation manual available to the Chinese, giving concrete explicit techniques for breath control, posture, mind and did influence Northern Chan and Tsung-tse...Dogen does deny any influence of Tendai shikan in Bendo wabut he regarded Zhiyi as the best of the scholastic masters and had considerable respect for Tendai. He also mentions the direct connection between shamatha and the attainment of nirvana in Hsaio chih-kuanp. 86Astus wrote: Chan can be matched with Tiantai's sudden and perfect method of the neither sitting nor walking samadhi. Dogen's works are part of the mature Zen literature, so he uses lots of Chan lingo.
Bielefeldt discusses the argument of the influential Tendai scholar Shindai Sekiguchi who argues quite explicitly on the Tiantai influence on the Ch'an tradition all further meditation manuals of Zen and Ch'an and Dogen's Fuken zazen-gi have relied at least indirectly on Zhiyi. p.62.
It's all terribly interesting, I dare say we need more research in this area.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Hee Jin-Kim in a footnote Eihei Dogen Mystical Realist compares Dogen's samadhi of self-fufilling activity as 'unconditioned freedom' to Shinran'sAstus wrote:The only new thing about Dogen's approach to meditation that I can find is his focus on the physical posture. But as for what is to be done while seated, the matter of neither-thinking (hishiryo) and dropping body and mind (shinjin datsuraku), those are not different from prajnaparamita (non-abiding, no-thought, etc.).DGA wrote:I think Dogen is writing about something different from shi kan when he describes shikantaza. For starters, he wasn't a fool. If he wanted to discuss shi kan, he would have done so rather than developing a new concept to get his teaching across.
naturalness jinen-honi the spontaneous working of the Tathagata's vow-power without human contrivance (footnote 21)
Suzuki wrote Infinite Buddha, saying Shin was the flip side of Zen...
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Well we may look into all sorts of traditions within buddhism.. however it does not really reflect the point. As I rote before none of soto masters ever mentioned any similarity to s/v or its unity.. as we know none of the other traditions made similar comparisons of their own distinctive practices with shikan taza... so still I do not know what is the point in such search.Johnny Dangerous wrote:There are some practices that are described as the unity of shamatha and vipaysana that are not really 'gradual' as such, so again, it really seems like a difference of nomenclature to me.Matylda wrote:Basically s/v is gradual approach, while shikan taza is not... it is why one needs very experienced teacher to get proper instructions, which are given mostly only in private.Justmeagain wrote:
Anyway each tradition is authonomus within its borders, therefore it was never any need to look at others or to use others instructions.. to train within one tradition of practice is life long pursue, there is very little time to cut a lice of bread from others before mastering its own way. It is nothing sectarian though.
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
Just because it's interesting, and because Shamatha and Vipaysana typically one can find as the bedrock of many Buddhist practices, for hopefully obvious reasons, and even if they are otherwise named. Traditions may be autonomous, but I also think they are often consistent. You don't need to understand why other people do things, nor are things you don't understand necessarily pointless.Matylda wrote:
Well we may look into all sorts of traditions within buddhism.. however it does not really reflect the point. As I rote before none of soto masters ever mentioned any similarity to s/v or its unity.. as we know none of the other traditions made similar comparisons of their own distinctive practices with shikan taza... so still I do not know what is the point in such search.
I wasn't really asking for advice, I already have teachers. Additionally, this is a nice, standard thing to say, but in the modern experience of Buddha dharma most have had experience of more than one school's teaching, so these questions will arise. You can be dismissive, and think they are not worthy questions if you want, that's certainly your right, but that opinion doesn't concern me.Anyway each tradition is authonomus within its borders, therefore it was never any need to look at others or to use others instructions.. to train within one tradition of practice is life long pursue, there is very little time to cut a lice of bread from others before mastering its own way. It is nothing sectarian though.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
I have not found that part of Bendowa. What he writes there regarding shikan:rory wrote:Dogen does deny any influence of Tendai shikan in Bendo wa
"[Someone] asks, “Is there nothing to prevent a person who practices this zazen from also performing mantra and quiet-reflection practices?”
I say: When I was in China, I heard the true essence of the teachings from a true master; he said that he had never heard that any of the patriarchs who received the authentic transmission of the Buddha-seal ever performed such practices additionally, in the Western Heavens or in the Eastern Lands, in the past or in the present. Certainly, unless we devote ourselves to one thing, we will not attain complete wisdom."
(SBGZ, vol 1, p 16)
And the footnote to the question states for "quiet-reflection" (although I do not completely agree with it):
"Shikan, lit., “ceasing and reflecting,” representing the Sanskrit words śamatha (quietness) and vipaśyanā (insight, reflection), is a practice of the Tendai sect: the method of practice is almost the same as the practice of zazen explained by Master Dōgen, but in the Tendai sect the practice is not regarded as sufficient in itself."
(p28n85)
That is an exaggeration. The section Bielefeldt refers to is about how one can attain calmness through realising emptiness. In other words, nirvana is perfect samatha.He also mentions the direct connection between shamatha and the attainment of nirvana in Hsaio chih-kuanp. 86
I consider it a misunderstanding of both Shinran and Dogen to make such comparisons.compares Dogen's samadhi of self-fufilling activity as 'unconditioned freedom' to Shinran's naturalness
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is Shikantaza a requisite of being a Soto Zennie?
This seems like a qualified "yes" to me..I will read up more, thanks, this is interesting!Astus wrote:The traditional Zen term is the unity of samadhi and prajna.Johnny Dangerous wrote:While I never got much explanation of what is shikantaza when I was involved in Zen, I will say that it basically sounds like what other teachers describe as the union of shamatha and vipaysana. If it's not, I'd love to know how/why it's different, other than the nomenclature used.
"Good friends, our teaching takes meditation and wisdom as its fundamental. Everyone, do not say in your delusion that meditation and wisdom are different."
(Platform Sutra, ch 4, BDK ed, p 41)
Dogen basically says the same by calling zazen practice-enlightenment.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama