NOT another Jhana Thread

Varis
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Varis » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:04 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:18 pm
I believe the Vimuttimagga is not one of the disputed commentaries. I'm not sure why. Doesn't that site talk about it? There are probably other sites that also talk about this. You didn't think that the arguments made on puredhamma were valid?
The arguments hinge upon the idea that Buddhaghosa introduced supposedly Vedic concepts and practices to Theravada through the Visuddhimagga, based upon the fact that Buddhaghosa had been a Vedic scholar prior to his conversion. As I mentioned before, the problem is that those same exact concepts and practices exist in the Vimuttimagga which predates the Visuddhimagga, so as a result we can easily determine that this is false, Buddhaghosa did not introduce them.

There is one mention of the Vimuttimagga on the website, and it speculates that maybe the Vimuttimagga was one of the texts written at the Anuradhapura Mahavihara in Sri Lanka, the problem is there's no evidence to suggest that the Vimuttimagga was written in Sri Lanka, it's believed it was written in mainland India.

Thus-gone
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Thus-gone » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:17 am

"Then is the holy life lived under the Blessed One for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path?"

"No, my friend."

"Then is the holy life lived under the Blessed One for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way?"

"No, my friend."

"Then is the holy life lived under the Blessed One for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision?"

"No, my friend."

"When asked if the holy life is lived under the Blessed One for the sake of purity in terms of virtue, you say, 'No, my friend.' When asked if the holy life is lived under the Blessed One for the sake of purity in terms of mind... view... the overcoming of perplexity... knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path... knowledge & vision of the way... knowledge & vision, you say, 'No, my friend.' For the sake of what, then, my friend, is the holy life lived under the Blessed One?"

"The holy life is lived under the Blessed One, my friend, for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging."

- MN 24

Fortyeightvows
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:21 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:40 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:27 pm
Also how do you reconcile the 'extinction of perception' with the eightfold path? or the buddha's own awakening?
Please quote where I said the "extinction of perception?" I cannot find this statement.
Isn't that the english for "Nirodha Samapatti"?

Fortyeightvows
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:32 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:35 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:27 pm
Anonymous X wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:37 am
the real goal in Buddhist teachings is to ''see things the way they actually are".
Please show me that in any early text. I'll be surprised if it's even in the digha-nikaya
SA301
SF168
SN12.15
Is this enough to satisfy you?
No, but, I appreciate the effort.
The passages you cited are describing right view.
Right view is not the goal. It is a step to the goal but it is not the goal.

PS:
It seems that sometimes things may come off the wrong way on the internet, you haven't but I'm not sure if I have so I'll just add this:
I do believe that if we had this debate over tea rather than over the internet, we would have a different experience of it, you get me? :cheers: :yinyang:

Anonymous X
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Location: Bangkok

Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:40 am

Varis wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:04 am
Anonymous X wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:18 pm
I believe the Vimuttimagga is not one of the disputed commentaries. I'm not sure why. Doesn't that site talk about it? There are probably other sites that also talk about this. You didn't think that the arguments made on puredhamma were valid?
The arguments hinge upon the idea that Buddhaghosa introduced supposedly Vedic concepts and practices to Theravada through the Visuddhimagga, based upon the fact that Buddhaghosa had been a Vedic scholar prior to his conversion. As I mentioned before, the problem is that those same exact concepts and practices exist in the Vimuttimagga which predates the Visuddhimagga, so as a result we can easily determine that this is false, Buddhaghosa did not introduce them.

There is one mention of the Vimuttimagga on the website, and it speculates that maybe the Vimuttimagga was one of the texts written at the Anuradhapura Mahavihara in Sri Lanka, the problem is there's no evidence to suggest that the Vimuttimagga was written in Sri Lanka, it's believed it was written in mainland India.
IIRC, the problem of translation already existed prior to Buddhaghosa. He mentions something about a fire that destroyed a good portion of the old manuscripts in antiquity and the ensuing problem that he says Buddhaghosa and others continued with the poor translation from Sanskrit to Pali. I can't give you any authoritative info on any of this. I just know that many current monks question Buddhaghosa's translations and feel he made many mistakes. It's not far fetched.

Another interesting point he makes is that all the suttas are written in a condensed form because it would have been impossible to remember verbatim all the question/answering and elaboration that must have gone on during any of the Buddha's discourses. This was the reason for the commentaries. The commentaries were to explain the nuances of suttas by arahants, not by translators like Buddhaghosa, who by accounts was not even a sotapanna, stream enterer. This problem of translation exists in every form of Buddhism. I've not even read the Vimuttimagga, myself. Didn't puredhamma argue that Vimuttimagga was not one of the commentaries that was improperly translated?

Anonymous X
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:45 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:21 am
Anonymous X wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:40 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:27 pm
Also how do you reconcile the 'extinction of perception' with the eightfold path? or the buddha's own awakening?
Please quote where I said the "extinction of perception?" I cannot find this statement.
Isn't that the english for "Nirodha Samapatti"?
The stopping of existence, or the end of the dream of existence.

Anonymous X
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Location: Bangkok

Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:46 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:32 am
Anonymous X wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:35 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:27 pm

Please show me that in any early text. I'll be surprised if it's even in the digha-nikaya
SA301
SF168
SN12.15
Is this enough to satisfy you?
No, but, I appreciate the effort.
The passages you cited are describing right view.
Right view is not the goal. It is a step to the goal but it is not the goal.

PS:
It seems that sometimes things may come off the wrong way on the internet, you haven't but I'm not sure if I have so I'll just add this:
I do believe that if we had this debate over tea rather than over the internet, we would have a different experience of it, you get me? :cheers: :yinyang:
Well, come to Bangkok! :D I have plenty of tea.

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:46 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:46 am
Well, come to Bangkok! :D I have plenty of tea.
Sounds great! I've been wanting to come to thailand for a while.
I'm glad we keep this friendly and I'm enjoying this exchange so...
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:32 am
Anonymous X wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:35 am
SA301
SF168
SN12.15
Is this enough to satisfy you?
The passages you cited are describing right view.
Right view is not the goal. It is a step to the goal but it is not the goal.

Tolya M
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Tolya M » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:31 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:01 am
Oh, man... You assume that you found in the canon what the monks did not notice for 2000 years... Ok. ))

What?
Its actually that your claim (which follows abhidhamma and the commentaries) is not found in the suttas.
Your finding something in the canon that isn't there.
Since English is not my native language , I will try to explain my position most clearly. The canon is very large. And neither you nor I etc., are able to make statements "there is no such term in the suttas" etc. There were tipitakadharas there was ven. Buddhaghosa there were saints (most likely) who commented theravada canon. Who did not know the canon? I or ven. agga maha pandita Ledi Sayadaw for example? There is only one answer to this question.
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:01 am
One cannot become a saint apart from nanas of vipassana but it is ok not to posess any jhana attaiment.
The emphasis on vipassana is a very very modern idea. If you set aside the commentaries for a bit, and look at the early texts, you will find that vipassana is mentioned very rarely, while jhana and the terms associated and used to describe jhana is pervasive.
I will not raise the theme of royal commissions, cleansing the theravada mainstream with sawing out Khmer rituals, pranayamas, vijjadharas, Lokanath's cult etc. There is no person in the South - East Asia nowadays who can restore these things for the westerners. Vipassana is the closest way for becoming sotapanna. Nowadays vipassana is not combined with samatha in an exotic-upadesa-style-way. (maybe in Vijja Dhammakaya but authencity of their methods is questioned). This is all that is at the moment.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:07 am

Tolya M wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:31 pm
The canon is very large. And neither you nor I etc., are able to make statements "there is no such term in the suttas" etc. There were tipitakadharas there was ven. Buddhaghosa there were saints (most likely) who commented theravada canon. Who did not know the canon? I or ven. agga maha pandita Ledi Sayadaw for example? There is only one answer to this question.
My post was in response to people who call the formless as "jhana".
I wasust reminding everyone that in the early suttas, the formless are not identified as jhana.
Yes I understand that in the later texts, commentaries people talk about the formless jhanas, but this isn't from the early sutta.
I'm sure that if someone could find a passage in the early sutta describing the formless as jhana, it be be made public, as it would make people like me shut up.

the truth is, if you put aside the commentaries and look at the early suttas, you can compare the formless with jhana and see for yourself that they are not described in the same way at all.
Tolya M wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:31 pm
Vipassana is the closest way for becoming sotapanna. Nowadays vipassana is not combined with samatha in an exotic-upadesa-style-way.
Again, not according to the early suttas. As I said before:
The emphasis on vipassana is a very very modern idea. If you set aside the commentaries for a bit, and look at the early texts, you will find that vipassana is mentioned very rarely, while jhana and the terms associated and used to describe jhana is pervasive.
Take a look at this article from Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... etool.html
But if you look directly at the Pali discourses — the earliest extant sources for our knowledge of the Buddha's teachings — you'll find that although they do use the word samatha to mean tranquillity, and vipassana to mean clear-seeing, they otherwise confirm none of the received wisdom about these terms. Only rarely do they make use of the word vipassana — a sharp contrast to their frequent use of the word jhana. When they depict the Buddha telling his disciples to go meditate, they never quote him as saying "go do vipassana," but always "go do jhana." And they never equate the word vipassana with any mindfulness techniques.

Tolya M
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Tolya M » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:42 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:07 am

Take a look at this article from Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... etool.html
Please read the books of ven. Ledi Sayadaw, ven. Pa Ayuk Sayadaw or ven. Dr. Nandamalbhivamsa. It is clear that you are not familiar with the comments. Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes "discoveries" that have been known for ages in the commentarial literature and do not represent any complicated question. He writes for a "wide range of readers" with a couple of suttas and pragmatism advocating for fictious "early sutta based buddhism". Never read much of him except his translations.These traces are from Great Britain empire actually not from Buddhasasana of SE Asia ))))

Varis
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Varis » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:11 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:40 am
IIRC, the problem of translation already existed prior to Buddhaghosa. He mentions something about a fire that destroyed a good portion of the old manuscripts in antiquity and the ensuing problem that he says Buddhaghosa and others continued with the poor translation from Sanskrit to Pali. I can't give you any authoritative info on any of this. I just know that many current monks question Buddhaghosa's translations and feel he made many mistakes. It's not far fetched.

Another interesting point he makes is that all the suttas are written in a condensed form because it would have been impossible to remember verbatim all the question/answering and elaboration that must have gone on during any of the Buddha's discourses. This was the reason for the commentaries. The commentaries were to explain the nuances of suttas by arahants, not by translators like Buddhaghosa, who by accounts was not even a sotapanna, stream enterer. This problem of translation exists in every form of Buddhism. I've not even read the Vimuttimagga, myself. Didn't puredhamma argue that Vimuttimagga was not one of the commentaries that was improperly translated?
The fire was at the Anuradhapura Mahavihara in Sri Lanka. As I mentioned earlier, the Vimuttimagga was not written in Sri Lanka, and the copy we have today is not from Sri Lanka it's a Chinese translation of the Vimuttimagga. The Vimuttimagga was supposed to have been written by an Arahant.
I know that there are monks who question the Visuddhimagga, but I don't think their arguments against it have any weight, the majority of which hinge upon the idea that Buddhaghosa was tainting the meditation techniques with Vedic ideas and practices, which as I mentioned earlier, there is no proof of that. What is likely is that the Vimuttimagga influenced Buddhaghosa considering how extremely similar they are.
The argument on Puredhamma about the Vimuttimagga is that it was probably written at the Mahavihara in Sri Lanka, but again, there's no proof of that. It's believed that copies of the Vimuttimagga made it to the Mahvihara, but it they were destroyed.

Anonymous X
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Anonymous X » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:19 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:46 pm
Anonymous X wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:46 am
Well, come to Bangkok! :D I have plenty of tea.
Sounds great! I've been wanting to come to thailand for a while.
I'm glad we keep this friendly and I'm enjoying this exchange so...
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:32 am
Anonymous X wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:35 am
SA301
SF168
SN12.15
Is this enough to satisfy you?
The passages you cited are describing right view.
Right view is not the goal. It is a step to the goal but it is not the goal.
Right View is necessary. Without putting the pieces into its proper place, there is no jig-saw puzzle picture to be seen.

Anonymous X
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Location: Bangkok

Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Anonymous X » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:56 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:07 am
But if you look directly at the Pali discourses — the earliest extant sources for our knowledge of the Buddha's teachings — you'll find that although they do use the word samatha to mean tranquillity, and vipassana to mean clear-seeing, they otherwise confirm none of the received wisdom about these terms. Only rarely do they make use of the word vipassana — a sharp contrast to their frequent use of the word jhana. When they depict the Buddha telling his disciples to go meditate, they never quote him as saying "go do vipassana," but always "go do jhana." And they never equate the word vipassana with any mindfulness techniques.
My suggestion is to read Analayo's books for a clearer picture of all this, particularly "Satipatthana, The Direct Path". Or, Ven. Payutto's writings on mindfulness and concentration.

In general, jhanas do not result in vijja. At some point, wisdom is established through insight, and the realm of samsara is penetrated. Suffering, the cause of suffering, the ending of suffering, and the means to end the suffering is established, known. Ignorance is ended. Jhanas are merely the temporary withdrawal of experience of the emotional reactions/activity of the body/senses. They can help prepare for wisdom through mindfulness and calming the emotional/mental activities that we usually associate with. Balance is very important in these matters.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:15 am

Tolya M wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:42 am
Please read the books of ven. Ledi Sayadaw, ven. Pa Ayuk Sayadaw or ven. Dr. Nandamalbhivamsa.
I'll check it out, but give me some time.
Tolya M wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:42 am
It is clear that you are not familiar with the comments. Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes "discoveries" that have been known for ages in the commentarial literature and do not represent any complicated question. He writes for a "wide range of readers" with a couple of suttas and pragmatism advocating for fictious "early sutta based buddhism". Never read much of him except his translations.These traces are from Great Britain empire actually not from Buddhasasana of SE Asia ))))
I don't know about all that, and I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure you'll agree that the buddha wasn't doing vippassana or focusing on his nose under the bodhi tree.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:34 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:56 am
In general, jhanas do not result in vijja. At some point, wisdom is established through insight, and the realm of samsara is penetrated. Suffering, the cause of suffering, the ending of suffering, and the means to end the suffering is established, known. Ignorance is ended. Jhanas are merely the temporary withdrawal of experience of the emotional reactions/activity of the body/senses. They can help prepare for wisdom through mindfulness and calming the emotional/mental activities that we usually associate with. Balance is very important in these matters.
Sounds persuasive but I'm not sold.
This part:
Anonymous X wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:56 am
jhanas do not result in vijja.
From this sutta: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Alara and Ramaputta taught the formless which the buddha said:
This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness
and
'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
But under the bodhi tree right before enlightenment, he entered jhana.
"So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained equanimous, mindful, & alert, and sensed pleasure with the body. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.
Right?
after he finally ate some food, he didn't start practicing vipassana! he remembered the jhana of his youth and then achieved awakening.

Thus-gone
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Thus-gone » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:14 am

"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

"For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.

"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

- AN 11.2

Anonymous X
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Anonymous X » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:32 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:34 am
Right?
after he finally ate some food, he didn't start practicing vipassana! he remembered the jhana of his youth and then achieved awakening.
I can see where this will venture into speculation about a host of things. Gotama was not an ordinary person unendowed with wisdom. There must have been a ton of wisdom that he cultivated to come back to the point of giving up both what Alara Kalama and the other teacher taught. He then did ascetic practices which he also gave up. All this must have had a profound effect on him. He was already able to see all his past lives! Returning to the jhanas was not without wisdom already developed to a high degree.

There are different explanations and commentaries of all the suttas, supposedly put forth by arahants. At some point, you have to develop disenchantment and dispassion which the Buddha said leads to cessation and release from suffering. There is no simple formula for all of this. There is only where you are at and how honest you are about 'yourself'. I wish I could be more helpful.

SunWuKong
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:47 pm

Tolya M wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:31 pm
Vipassana is the closest way for becoming sotapanna. Nowadays vipassana is not combined with samatha in an exotic-upadesa-style-way. (maybe in Vijja Dhammakaya but authencity of their methods is questioned). This is all that is at the moment.
Yaeh I can't go down that route. Samatha and Vipassayna are both based on the same text. They actually are the same practice, as is most "Buddhist" practice whether we like to admit it or not - my 2 cents worth
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

SunWuKong
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:53 pm

Wait what I meant to say was Anapanasati and Satipatanna are the basis of both Vipassana and Samatha, and theres no indication in the suttas that they are separate practices. Period. Samatha alone by itslef leads one into the Serenity Trap, Vipasana alone by itslef leads to endless corridors of discrimination thinking...
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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