NOT another Jhana Thread

Tolya M
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Tolya M » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:15 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:47 pm
Tolya M wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:31 pm
Vipassana is the closest way for becoming sotapanna. Nowadays vipassana is not combined with samatha in an exotic-upadesa-style-way. (maybe in Vijja Dhammakaya but authencity of their methods is questioned). This is all that is at the moment.
Yaeh I can't go down that route. Samatha and Vipassayna are both based on the same text. They actually are the same practice, as is most "Buddhist" practice whether we like to admit it or not - my 2 cents worth
There is ever-present\sabba cittasadharana ekagatta cetasika which participates in every mental activity, but bhavana\cultivation and vipassana are different practices. One cannot melt them because they have different objecs. Otherwise all hindu yogins would be aryas.

SunWuKong
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by SunWuKong » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:11 am

Let me rephrase - one cannot fully appreciate or understand no-self, no-permanence, that dukkha must arise from attachment to the conditioned, unless one can quiet the mind/heart to the extent that emptiness becomes paramount, whats being called vipassana, insight into the true nature, is entirely dependent on experiencing it first hand. What every yogi in India does i have no idea but its understood that authentic samadhi is rather the exception, not the rule :anjali:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

Anonymous X
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Location: Bangkok

Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:37 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:11 am
Let me rephrase - one cannot fully appreciate or understand no-self, no-permanence, that dukkha must arise from attachment to the conditioned, unless one can quiet the mind/heart to the extent that emptiness becomes paramount, whats being called vipassana, insight into the true nature, is entirely dependent on experiencing it first hand. What every yogi in India does i have no idea but its understood that authentic samadhi is rather the exception, not the rule :anjali:
The main argument that Bhante Punnaji makes against samatha bhavana and vipassana as it is practiced in mainstream Theravada, is the emphasis on 'one-pointedness', concentration. It is missing the relinquishment step of relaxation and that this occurs from the wrong translations of Pali texts from antiquity. Many mis-translated suttas and commentaries, especially Visuddhimagga by Buddhaghosa. Samatha and vipassana should be seamlessly interwoven if done correctly. One does not preclude the other or contradict the other. This is not taught in the more popular samatha and vipassana practices. His criticisms of mainstream Theravada teachings is echoed through other Sri Lankan monks who are thought to be heretical by some hardliners. Punnaji has an interesting take on all this. At 89, he's lucid, happy, and kind and all his teachings are in English as he speaks fluently, but slowly enough to let it all sink in. What needs to be quieted is the emotional response that is habitual and obscures wisdom, the natural intelligence of the body. Then the process is invigorated/accelerated with a different kind of energy through a deep relaxation where dispassion and relinquishment are established.

thecowisflying
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Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by thecowisflying » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:08 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:37 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:11 am
Let me rephrase - one cannot fully appreciate or understand no-self, no-permanence, that dukkha must arise from attachment to the conditioned, unless one can quiet the mind/heart to the extent that emptiness becomes paramount, whats being called vipassana, insight into the true nature, is entirely dependent on experiencing it first hand. What every yogi in India does i have no idea but its understood that authentic samadhi is rather the exception, not the rule :anjali:
The main argument that Bhante Punnaji makes against samatha bhavana and vipassana as it is practiced in mainstream Theravada, is the emphasis on 'one-pointedness', concentration. It is missing the relinquishment step of relaxation and that this occurs from the wrong translations of Pali texts from antiquity. Many mis-translated suttas and commentaries, especially Visuddhimagga by Buddhaghosa. Samatha and vipassana should be seamlessly interwoven if done correctly. One does not preclude the other or contradict the other. This is not taught in the more popular samatha and vipassana practices. His criticisms of mainstream Theravada teachings is echoed through other Sri Lankan monks who are thought to be heretical by some hardliners. Punnaji has an interesting take on all this. At 89, he's lucid, happy, and kind and all his teachings are in English as he speaks fluently, but slowly enough to let it all sink in. What needs to be quieted is the emotional response that is habitual and obscures wisdom, the natural intelligence of the body. Then the process is invigorated/accelerated with a different kind of energy through a deep relaxation where dispassion and relinquishment are established.
Lots of people seem to have a protestant attitude nowadays regarding Buddhism. Western influence seems pretty strong in Theravada or at least what is popular with Westerners.

SunWuKong
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:09 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:37 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:11 am
Let me rephrase - one cannot fully appreciate or understand no-self, no-permanence, that dukkha must arise from attachment to the conditioned, unless one can quiet the mind/heart to the extent that emptiness becomes paramount, whats being called vipassana, insight into the true nature, is entirely dependent on experiencing it first hand. What every yogi in India does i have no idea but its understood that authentic samadhi is rather the exception, not the rule :anjali:
The main argument that Bhante Punnaji makes against samatha bhavana and vipassana as it is practiced in mainstream Theravada, is the emphasis on 'one-pointedness', concentration. It is missing the relinquishment step of relaxation and that this occurs from the wrong translations of Pali texts from antiquity. Many mis-translated suttas and commentaries, especially Visuddhimagga by Buddhaghosa. Samatha and vipassana should be seamlessly interwoven if done correctly. One does not preclude the other or contradict the other. This is not taught in the more popular samatha and vipassana practices. His criticisms of mainstream Theravada teachings is echoed through other Sri Lankan monks who are thought to be heretical by some hardliners. Punnaji has an interesting take on all this. At 89, he's lucid, happy, and kind and all his teachings are in English as he speaks fluently, but slowly enough to let it all sink in. What needs to be quieted is the emotional response that is habitual and obscures wisdom, the natural intelligence of the body. Then the process is invigorated/accelerated with a different kind of energy through a deep relaxation where dispassion and relinquishment are established.
This is good. I'm not sure myself what everybody is saying about these topics. I am aware that relinquishment - or calm abiding - is prerequisite, unless you take the whole exercise as being one of only visualization. That's not even worth bothering with to me. Once one becomes detatched one can direct inquiry, after, not before.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

SunWuKong
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: NOT another Jhana Thread

Post by SunWuKong » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:07 am

This is good. I'm not sure myself what everybody is saying about these topics. I am aware that relinquishment - or calm abiding - is prerequisite, unless you take the whole exercise as being one of only visualization. That's not even worth bothering with to me. Once one becomes detatched one can direct inquiry, after, not before.
[/quote]

to expand a bit on that, relinquishment to me means that when you take a raft across a broad river, first you have to row it out, but at some point, the current of the river begins to take over. At any point you could return to the same shore you left from. To trust the river and go with the current, it is like an "event horizon" from which you won't return, it is a definitive choice and an act of courage. Thanks for the link to Bhante P. :bow:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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