Veganism is an Eating Disorder

A place to discuss health and fitness, including healthy diets, etc.
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Vasana
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Vasana » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:37 pm

DharmaN00b wrote:It occurs to me that vegan bears a stigma, that nullifies unwanted awareness of shame or disgrace. The term carnism- another weaponised term- carries a counter mark of disgrace.

That aside, I do not think I am alone in saying that many people would rather reduce their own health, if that means a net reduction in suffering
What about vegan athletes and body builders? No compromise in health there.
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Adamantine
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Adamantine » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:56 pm

As already pointed out, Veganism is about an ethical stance
of ahimsa, and covers ones' whole lifestyle such as clothes and furniture and not just food. I used to aspire to be on a vegan diet but got very sick both times I tried. I rejoice in the ability of friends of mine who are able to pull it off. I lean this way but am not at all fanatical about vegetarianism even(as I may have been in youth) and am not strict anymore. I no longer judge anyone re: their dietary choices but it does make me happy to learn when a friend is vegetarian or vegan. Because of my own experience, sometimes I may get slightly concerned for a friend if I learn they are vegan or going-vegan with their diet. Not everyone's constitution can adjust..

I tend to agree with points about how all diets in modern life cause harm. It's good not to ignore this either. But we shouldn't stop eating, or go Jain. However it's important to not ignore the specific suffering of animals and the humans whose jobs require them to commit daily atrocities. See here: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1046 ... Comparison
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

DharmaN00b
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DharmaN00b » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:16 pm

Vasana wrote:
DharmaN00b wrote:It occurs to me that vegan bears a stigma, that nullifies unwanted awareness of shame or disgrace. The term carnism- another weaponised term- carries a counter mark of disgrace.

That aside, I do not think I am alone in saying that many people would rather reduce their own health, if that means a net reduction in suffering
What about vegan athletes and body builders? No compromise in health there.
To be the best has lost it's meaning in recent times. The pursuit is arguably vestigiable. That said, I Agree with you to an extent. IE Modern (animal free) athletes bring results without harm.

Strive
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Strive » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:02 pm

from a buddhist pov i think veganism is noble and highly thing to do. i salute to those who can do it :thumbsup:

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by seeker242 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:45 am

Vasana wrote:
What about vegan athletes and body builders? No compromise in health there.
There's a new documentary coming out on that very subject. :smile:

https://www.clearlyveg.com/blog/2017/05 ... ocumentary
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:52 am

DharmaN00b wrote:It occurs to me that vegan bears a stigma, that nullifies unwanted awareness of shame or disgrace. The term carnism- another weaponised term- carries a counter mark of disgrace.

That aside, I do not think I am alone in saying that many people would rather reduce their own health, if that means a net reduction in suffering (The needs of the many). So the confusion, or disorder, hinges upon small vs large sacrifices in terms of what has already been touched upon IE our rationalizations. So, marginal changes to personal health mean more to some people than existential and qualitative changes to the health of others. Of course, many of us are becoming increasingly aware of global impacts in relation to our own personal longevity.

At least part of the question is relative health to absolute health, which require quite the juggling act and more balls than we envisage.
:good:

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:32 am

DharmaN00b wrote: That aside, I do not think I am alone in saying that many people would rather reduce their own health, if that means a net reduction in suffering (The needs of the many).
A person can be more healthy on a vegetarian or vegan diet than on the typical American diet. Studies have repeatedly shown that a plant-based diet with an adequate amount of nutrients can prevent or reverse diabetes, heart disease, etc.

Other than B12, humans do not get any nutrient from animal products that doesn't come from fruits and vegetables. We can get B12 from cows because the bacteria in a cow's stomach produces it. Our ancestors, however, got B12 from the algae in drinking from fresh water sources.

Those on a diet of whole plant foods who take a B12 supplement will not become nutrient deficient.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:50 am

phpBB [video]


This video shows how vegans can be self-centered buttheads. Watch them complain about tofu with trace amounts of cheese, and then complain some more about Whole Foods employees having the gall to ask you about your weekend. Vegans who care about animals to the point of hating on other people miss the point of being vegan.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:45 pm

Why am I not a vegan? Just as most diets fail, most people who try going vegan or vegetarian end up eating meat again.

If going meat-free is a healthier, more ethical choice, why insist on being so restrictive as to prevent a person from actually being able to practice it?

Less restrictive than veganism, vegetarianism is healthier and more humane than the typical American diet. The Buddha taught against killing animals, not eggs and dairy.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DharmaN00b » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:19 pm

Dharma Flower wrote: Other than B12, humans do not get any nutrient from animal products that doesn't come from fruits and vegetables. We can get B12 from cows because the bacteria in a cow's stomach produces it. Our ancestors, however, got B12 from the algae in drinking from fresh water sources.

Those on a diet of whole plant foods who take a B12 supplement will not become nutrient deficient.
Yes, you never know who hasn't had the benefit of all this bonus information. I would like to add omega 3's to the list. As for myself, a spoon of ground flax seed hopefully gets the job done. For B12, it's plant based milks, spreads and mucky vegetables if the tales carry any clout. I would love to share some veg based recipes in an appropriate thread too.

Many thanks!

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by The Artis Magistra » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:00 pm

If someone thinks Veganism = Buddhism, they may be wrong and confused. Veganism is whatever Veganism is or is said to be, Buddhism is whatever it is. I think the real trouble I see sometimes are people saying or thinking that Veganism is Buddhism. They may lead to one another in some ways, but one becoming a Vegan does not make one a Buddhist or practicing Buddhism, and one becoming a Buddhist or practicing Buddhism does not mean they've just become a Vegan.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by seeker242 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:30 am

Dharma Flower wrote:The Buddha taught against killing animals, not eggs and dairy.
The problem with eggs and dairy is that they kill animals too.

This below is a standard practice in the egg industry, and it's barbaric. The male offspring of dairy cows are often sent off the the veal factory, where they are subjected to other barbaric practices, and of course killed after that.

phpBB [video]
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:07 am

seeker242 wrote: The problem with eggs and dairy is that they kill animals too.
That problem is already being solved:
What’s the alternative? The main one is called in-ovo sexing, and it identifies the gender of a future chick inside a fertilized egg. The technology, developed in Germany and the Netherlands, will mean those male chicks will never be born — or ground or gassed or suffocated, the kill methods some hatcheries employ.

Other alternatives are also being explored, including one that would turn male chick eggs a different color from those of females, Paul Shapiro, vice president of farm animal protection at the Humane Society of the United States, said in a recent interview.

“We are aware that there are a number of international research initiatives underway in this area, and we encourage the development of an alternative with the goal of eliminating the culling,” Chad Gregory, the president and chief executive of United Egg Producers, said in a statement.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ani ... af90b8f52e

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Strive » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:02 am

The Artis Magistra wrote:If someone thinks Veganism = Buddhism, they may be wrong and confused. Veganism is whatever Veganism is or is said to be, Buddhism is whatever it is. I think the real trouble I see sometimes are people saying or thinking that Veganism is Buddhism. They may lead to one another in some ways, but one becoming a Vegan does not make one a Buddhist or practicing Buddhism, and one becoming a Buddhist or practicing Buddhism does not mean they've just become a Vegan.
veganism isnt buddhism but to develop the seeds of love and compassion it would be be very good to be vegan i think. even a sutra says that the ppl who eat meat dont have compassion but i forget which sutra

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by seeker242 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:08 am

Dharma Flower wrote:
seeker242 wrote: The problem with eggs and dairy is that they kill animals too.
That problem is already being solved:
That's great! However, until the problem is solved and implemented on a mass scale, with the other practices discontinued, then one can say the "problem is solved". Although, that's not the only problem with eggs and the killing of animals. All mass production egg laying hens are killed after their egg production drops below a profitable level. That won't ever change.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by KathyLauren » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:49 pm

Consider this: Imagine a cotton farmer who still keeps slaves to work his farm. He takes good care of them. They live in nice, clean, well-built houses that he provides. They have good, nutritious, tasty food, and he provides them with good clothing. He needs them to be healthy for work, so he ensures that they have the best medical care and adequate time off.

So what is wrong with the picture? The slaves aren't harmed, are they?

Why is it unacceptable for humans and yet okay for animals? Christians would say it's because humans have a soul and animals don't. (They used the same argument in slavery days about folks of African origin.) But Buddhists don't believe that, do we? So what is the Buddhist rationalization?

Vegans are those who cannot rationalize away the slavery of animals. It doesn't help to say that they are treated humanely. That doesn't address the fundamental issue.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DharmaN00b » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:13 pm

KathyLauren wrote:
Why is it unacceptable for humans and yet okay for animals? Christians would say it's because humans have a soul and animals don't. (They used the same argument in slavery days about folks of African origin.) But Buddhists don't believe that, do we? So what is the Buddhist rationalization?

Vegans are those who cannot rationalize away the slavery of animals. It doesn't help to say that they are treated humanely. That doesn't address the fundamental issue.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
A friend of mine would often tell me that life is cheep. After being reminded so much of this- and apparently taking this as an authoritative statement that required no further explanation - it got me thinking, Is life cheap, and if so why? Could it be so that many people have a strong sense of self importance and take themselves too seriously? In order to be so important we would have to make some sort of statement about this. Take for example the pharaoh's and their tombs, or the grand estates of monarchs and celebrities. How else can we be above all? By our form, our intellect, our gender, our race, our religion; anything at all really for someone insecure about their own sentience.

Do the pitfalls of insecurity actually lead to a cheapening of life? This would barely cover the issues raised if there is any fit at all to the questions you pose. But I do recognize you potentially raise awareness of double standards and cognitive dissonance. To be socially and culturally normative in modern life entails a degree of unquestioning consent. it isn't entirely down to laziness that we delegate tasks and issues to others, and it isn't always in our best interests to do so. At some point we have to connect the dots looking beyond the bubbles of singular existence, and maybe question the orthodox paradigm that means a larger slice of pie for everyone, in spite of an increasing demand for said pie.

It just seems to be so grossly inefficient and neglectful right now. Measures to cheapen and thereby bolster the effectiveness of approved systems is leading to other sorts of chaos such as antibiotic resistance and skyrocketing healthcare epidemics. Despite select sentient being so cheap and unimportant we do tend to use an awful lot of resources in unsustainable upkeep costs. Again, the general consuming public don't see this, and don't connect the dots. The effects tend to manifest themselves in an indirect way so it's not really enough for everyone to have a quick sit down and think.

Sometimes these thing just play out and the change become apparent of their own accord. Is karma a 'playing out' or unfolding? Perhaps I'm mistaken and waffle on too much. :shrug:

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:28 pm

KathyLauren wrote: Vegans are those who cannot rationalize away the slavery of animals. It doesn't help to say that they are treated humanely. That doesn't address the fundamental issue.
Does that mean no more pet cats and dogs?

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:29 pm

Given that I used to eat extreme amounts of meat, it's a miracle that I am now a vegetarian, let alone a vegan. My only sources of animal protein are nonfat, cholesterol-free dairy and egg whites, and my arteries are already thanking me.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by The Artis Magistra » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:02 pm

Yes there are sutras which talk about Vegetarianism or have made many people vegetarians, they can be found online as well.

Plants are also full living creatures which also seem to feel distress or send out distress signals, and humans also have reactive mechanisms which work in very much the same way and are stimulus based.

Bacteria are also living, and at times can infect wounds, plants can grow and overtake other plants or cause other plants to wither, animals and mankind respect one another through their eyes and cries which look and sound very similar to one another because we are closely related.

All these things are good to study and consider.

Why should we cause distress and death to plants or even single cells which are also living?

One can take a chunk of cells and watch how they react even independently.

Yet, many draw the line at things with eyes, even though Banana trees walk around in the night moving a great deal.

If plants are "retards" then would it be wrong to eat the senseless?

If I saw a wimpering little boy who had no senses supposedly, shall I serve him up as a vegetarian dish?

Or is Buddhism also about acknowledging reality and the nature of things as they are?

The Buddhas seemed to eat meat but not go around killing animals for food. Then again, in killing an animal for food one could call it a means to end suffering, for both the animal and the hungry, but that same notion can be applied to babies and imagining we are sparing them from troubles by a baby genocide until finally people are born as happy adults!

The main thing to gain from this are not politicized stances, but deep thinking. Will you change your actions by this thinking and gain further or broader consuderation or remain just as you were, as if there was no thinking at all between then or now or ear to ear.

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