Body building and steroids

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Tlalok
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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Tlalok » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:48 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:03 pm
Tlalok wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:37 pm
I really doubt that you can maintain mass like that on a monastic diet for any real length of time, unless you're getting a frak ton of creatine and whey isolate in your alms bowl.
And steroids.
Oh yeah he's probably juicing. Not knocking the effort required to get there though.

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by ford_truckin » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:22 am

Many bodybuilders are straight edge and don't do steroids. It's a healthy and positive way to live.

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:16 am

ford_truckin wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:22 am
Many bodybuilders are straight edge and don't do steroids. It's a healthy and positive way to live.
You on steroids or something? There ain't a body builder alive who is not on something... anything!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

ford_truckin
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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by ford_truckin » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:12 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:16 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:22 am
Many bodybuilders are straight edge and don't do steroids. It's a healthy and positive way to live.
You on steroids or something? There ain't a body builder alive who is not on something... anything!
No I'm not and you're wrong. Most guys with normal genetics can look like the monk with some protein and dedication.

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:27 am

ford_truckin wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:12 am
No I'm not and you're wrong. Most guys with normal genetics can look like the monk with some protein and dedication.
Do you even lift bro? :tongue:

No, a person with normal genetics cannot look like that "with some protein and dedication".

Do you know how many protein supplements have steroids in them without it being referenced on the ingredients label? Last article I read tested supplements from the US and Europe and found that about 80% of US produced supplements have steroids in them. The "cleanest" products were produced in Germany.

But then, I have only been working in gyms for the past 14 years, so what would I know?

PS A friend of mine started a company to retail and wholesale supplements and wanted to make sure that he was bringing in the best quality products available. He would send samples of products to a chemist to get them checked. You know what the most common ingredient in protein supplements is (apart from sugar)? Antibiotics. You see the supplements industry has taken a page from the livestock industry, where they feed the animals non-medicinal doses of certain antibiotics, since they act as muscle growth stimulants. Of course they overlook the fact that they are also breeding antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria in the meantime, but...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Norwegian
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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Norwegian » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:17 pm

ford_truckin wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:12 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:16 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:22 am
Many bodybuilders are straight edge and don't do steroids. It's a healthy and positive way to live.
You on steroids or something? There ain't a body builder alive who is not on something... anything!
No I'm not and you're wrong. Most guys with normal genetics can look like the monk with some protein and dedication.
Indeed. That said, the assumption here is that he's a monk. I am not really sure he is. Most likely just someone dressing up for the camera, in order to get attention.

But yes, to claim that one needs steroids to get such a body is crazy. And as for bodybuilding, a bodybuilder is someone who dedicates themselves to achieving as much symmetrical mass/muscle-size as possible, which of course can be done with or without performance enhancing drugs. If you go the natural route, without, then certainly you will never, ever look like Arnold Schwarzenegger did when he won Mr. Olympia, or Ronnie Coleman, etc. But everybody knows this. Or should rather...

Bodybuilding is said in a very simple way the idea of lifting weights until muscular hypertrophy, by way of lifting low weight with high reps. This - again in a simplistic manner - is the opposite of power lifting, where you do not really care for hypertrophy the way bodybuilders would, and where you go for high weight with low reps, for the goal of attaining as much strength as possible.

Thus if you compare the best of the best from bodybuilding vs. those of power lifting, they can certainly be massive people (and will be if they use PED's), but their body type is quite different.

Kirill Sarychev, world record holder in bench press (335 kg), and world record holder raw power lifting (1,082.5kg - 360kg squat, 320kg bench, 402.5kg deadlift): https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/826/41962 ... 5cab_b.jpg

Andrei Malanichev, world record in raw power lifting, also squat (but I believe different organization from Sarychev) (1,150kg - 485kg squat, 260kg bench, 405kg deadlift): http://i1.wp.com/www.thefitworldblog.co ... =730%2C550

Ronnie Coleman, winner of Mr. Olympia eight years in a row: https://cdn2-thevladarcompany.netdna-ss ... oleman.jpg

Arnold Schwarzenegger, 7 time winner of Mr. Olympia: https://i.redd.it/6lmw4tj5czk01.jpg

As should be easy to see, there's a massive difference in body type. Two are elite power lifters, while the other two were elite bodybuilders. Of course none of them are/were clean.

Grigoris wrote:No, a person with normal genetics cannot look like that with some protein and dedication.
The alleged monk in question has a 100% natural looking physique. To claim that he must be on steroids is so out of touch with everything that has to do with strength training, nutrition, and just general lifting that it is actually rather astounding to read.
Grigoris wrote:But then, I have only been working in gyms for the past 14 years, so what would I know?
Clearly not much at all.

The alleged monk is thin, with not that much muscle mass. His forearms are completely normal - anonymous even, his biceps shows some basic evidence of knowing how to do regular biceps curls, there's triceps, there's shoulders, and there's pecs. A six-pack too. Nothing out of the ordinary. Of course he's hit the gym, but this is a completely normal result for someone who is natural and dedicated over time. Note that he has virtually no traps whatsoever. His shoulders are normal too. And he's relatively thin, while slightly vascular - which with low body fat and a slight pump is easy to achieve.

What's funny to me is that I could get way larger forearms (as an example) than this guy in just some months, with a normal food intake, and of course no PED's. I wouldn't even need supplements in the form of protein, although that certainly is helpful (and I get my protein from Norway, it goes through strict testing, no steroids in it whatsoever, just whey or casein). Just normal food.

What routine would I go for then? Barbell curls with fat grips, reverse barbell curls with fat grips, hammer curls with thickbar dumbbells, thickbar hammer leverage bar lifts front/reverse as well as pronation/supination lifts, wrist curl variants, wrist roller, pinch lifts, gripper sets (something like a Captains of Crush range of #2, #2.5, and #3, where I'd grind out as many reps as possible on specific days with the #2, and then go for a work set with the #2.5, and negatives/overcrushes with the #3. If I'm feeling particularly adventurous, I could throw in some forced negatives on the #3.5). Then throw in some extensor bands for good measure, and you're done. I'd add farmer's walks if possible, but I don't have equipment for that.

With a decent pump and similar lighting as our "monk" above, I'd far surpass his forearms. The rest of his physique is also easily achievable if one only cares to sleep right, eat right, and lift right.

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by mechashivaz » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:27 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:12 am
No I'm not and you're wrong. Most guys with normal genetics can look like the monk with some protein and dedication.
Do you even lift bro? :tongue:

No, a person with normal genetics cannot look like that "with some protein and dedication".
This is a typical thing people who don't lift think: every one with some big defined muscles must be on the juice lol. Also your comment about 80% of protein sups have roids in them is utterly absurd and dishonest. Why would they put anabolic steroids in the protein powder? It's not meant to be taken orally... there's just no whey... :rolling: Gonna have to provide a citation on the antibiotics in protein powders, it would be just as much as consumed through meat, milk, and cheese or less because of the refining process.

PS, that monk is hardly "ripped" lolol

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:50 pm

mechashivaz wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:55 pm
Also your comment about 80% of protein sups have roids in them is utterly absurd and dishonest.
It is neither absurd nor dishonest. I am not in the habit of lying. Right Speech and Precepts, yah know? It was a study published in a renowned muscle mag. Like it or lump it.
Why would they put anabolic steroids in the protein powder? It's not meant to be taken orally...
There are lots of steroids that can be taken orally.

Anadrol and Dianabol and Anavar are some of the most "popular" ones among body-builders.

Body building is broken up into a number of categories, the fitness category is what the pictured "monk" fits into. Actually, Dianabol is a favorite with the fitness crowd. I have yet to meet a body builder that is not taking something.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by mechashivaz » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:50 pm
mechashivaz wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:55 pm
Also your comment about 80% of protein sups have roids in them is utterly absurd and dishonest.
It is neither absurd nor dishonest. I am not in the habit of lying. Right Speech and Precepts, yah know? It was a study published in a renowned muscle mag. Like it or lump it.
Why would they put anabolic steroids in the protein powder? It's not meant to be taken orally...
There are lots of steroids that can be taken orally.

Anadrol and Dianabol and Anavar are some of the most "popular" ones among body-builders.

Body building is broken up into a number of categories, the fitness category is what the pictured "monk" fits into. Actually, Dianabol is a favorite with the fitness crowd. I have yet to meet a body builder that is not taking something.
I don't think you mean to lie, just the information is wrong. If 80% of protein sups had roids in them it'd be a huge deal and this "study" would have to be replicated, yet a good ole google search doesn't bring up anything at all.

If folks are taking oral roids they're foolish and haven't done their homework. It's way more toxic and less effective if taken orally.

Why would folks be putting roids into protein anyway? It wouldn't be cost effective and just throwing traces in there wouldn't be effective to the lifter, what's their agenda?

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:07 pm

mechashivaz wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:26 pm
I don't think you mean to lie, just the information is wrong. If 80% of protein sups had roids in them it'd be a huge deal and this "study" would have to be replicated, yet a good ole google search doesn't bring up anything at all.
The study is about 12-13 years old. There was a time when google was not the main source of info on this planet. There is plenty of stuff in published material that does not make it to the internet.

Nonetheless, a 1.10 second google search turns up a number of articles:
Here is one from the FDA http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/2 ... index.html
Here is one from the UK National Health System https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-bo ... nts-facts/

And there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there.

Thing is, when it comes to juice heads (in particular) no amount of facts is going to make them change their (stunted mental capacity) brains. Problem is that steroids effect one's mental functioning, as well as one's physical capacity. When you have the testosterone levels of a 17 year old surging through your veins, you are going to act like a 17 year old.

In my 13 years in gymnasiums (including a stint in a gym where half the people were juiced to the eyeballs) I have seen all sorts of crazy shit.

After some time in the above-mentioned gym I decided to do a eight week course of oral and injectable steroids, protein, amino acids and creatine just to see what the deal was. Luckily for me I had a friend who was a pharmacist so I was getting prescription stuff, unlike the others that were buying all sorts of suspect shit. The difference in performance is mind boggling. In eight weeks my body transformed in a way that the previous almost ten years of training had not achieved.
If folks are taking oral roids they're foolish and haven't done their homework. It's way more toxic and less effective if taken orally.
If people are injecting steroids, without having testosterone deficiencies, then they are foolish whether they have done their homework or not.

My stint on steroids caused serious tendonitis in both my forearms, a shoulder injury that lingered for almost a year and incredible pains in my kidneys. The gains were short lived (easy come-easy go).
Why would folks be putting roids into protein anyway? It wouldn't be cost effective and just throwing traces in there wouldn't be effective to the lifter, what's their agenda?
I buy some spiked protein. I see visible changes. I now also buy your amino acids and creatine and maybe some vitamin supplements. I tell my friends at the gym (and/or they see for themselves). They buy your spiked product. They the also buy your other products. They also tell your friends. Ad nauseum. After about a year you pull the steroids out of your product because you have built your client base. Most of the stuff you are selling me is just sugar anyway, which is cheap as hell and which you are marking up for unbelievable profit margins and so...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by dharmafootsteps » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:21 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:27 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:12 am
No I'm not and you're wrong. Most guys with normal genetics can look like the monk with some protein and dedication.
Do you even lift bro? :tongue:

No, a person with normal genetics cannot look like that "with some protein and dedication".

Do you know how many protein supplements have steroids in them without it being referenced on the ingredients label? Last article I read tested supplements from the US and Europe and found that about 80% of US produced supplements have steroids in them. The "cleanest" products were produced in Germany.

But then, I have only been working in gyms for the past 14 years, so what would I know?

PS A friend of mine started a company to retail and wholesale supplements and wanted to make sure that he was bringing in the best quality products available. He would send samples of products to a chemist to get them checked. You know what the most common ingredient in protein supplements is (apart from sugar)? Antibiotics. You see the supplements industry has taken a page from the livestock industry, where they feed the animals non-medicinal doses of certain antibiotics, since they act as muscle growth stimulants. Of course they overlook the fact that they are also breeding antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria in the meantime, but...
You're trolling right?

Edit: more posts have appeared... apparently not trolling. I'm somewhat baffled by these responses :shrug:

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by mechashivaz » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:07 pm
mechashivaz wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:26 pm
I don't think you mean to lie, just the information is wrong. If 80% of protein sups had roids in them it'd be a huge deal and this "study" would have to be replicated, yet a good ole google search doesn't bring up anything at all.
The study is about 12-13 years old. There was a time when google was not the main source of info on this planet. There is plenty of stuff in published material that does not make it to the internet.

Nonetheless, a 1.10 second google search turns up a number of articles:
Here is one from the FDA http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/2 ... index.html
Here is one from the UK National Health System https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-bo ... nts-facts/

And there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there.

Thing is, when it comes to juice heads (in particular) no amount of facts is going to make them change their (stunted mental capacity) brains. Problem is that steroids effect one's mental functioning, as well as one's physical capacity. When you have the testosterone levels of a 17 year old surging through your veins, you are going to act like a 17 year old.

In my 13 years in gymnasiums (including a stint in a gym where half the people were juiced to the eyeballs) I have seen all sorts of crazy shit.

After some time in the above-mentioned gym I decided to do a eight week course of oral and injectable steroids, protein, amino acids and creatine just to see what the deal was. Luckily for me I had a friend who was a pharmacist so I was getting prescription stuff, unlike the others that were buying all sorts of suspect shit. The difference in performance is mind boggling. In eight weeks my body transformed in a way that the previous almost ten years of training had not achieved.
If folks are taking oral roids they're foolish and haven't done their homework. It's way more toxic and less effective if taken orally.
If people are injecting steroids, without having testosterone deficiencies, then they are foolish whether they have done their homework or not.

My stint on steroids caused serious tendonitis in both my forearms, a shoulder injury that lingered for almost a year and incredible pains in my kidneys. The gains were short lived (easy come-easy go).
Why would folks be putting roids into protein anyway? It wouldn't be cost effective and just throwing traces in there wouldn't be effective to the lifter, what's their agenda?
I buy some spiked protein. I see visible changes. I now also buy your amino acids and creatine and maybe some vitamin supplements. I tell my friends at the gym (and/or they see for themselves). They buy your spiked product. They the also buy your other products. They also tell your friends. Ad nauseum. After about a year you pull the steroids out of your product because you have built your client base. Most of the stuff you are selling me is just sugar anyway, which is cheap as hell and which you are marking up for unbelievable profit margins and so...
The first link is: "products marketed as containing steroids or steroid-like substances." Not what we're talking about here, those are obvious red flags. Second link talks about having too much protein and the risk of tainted supplements, etc but no where is there anything remotely claiming "80% of US produced supplements have steroids in them", altho, if the article you read was from so long again there may be a hint of truth to it, as regulations on supps were like the wild west back then. I'm def in not trying to champion supps and roids, when I first started working out I was a sucker for all that pre-work out and crazy vitamin stacks blah blah but fortunately a few months in I called BS on it and all I take these days is whey protein on a heavy work out day. I get your argument about sup comps trying to make people get extra gains and then everyone cheers and shares but in my experience over time most people will eventually settle on established companies that have quality reputations, or hopefully that's the case. But most of these comps certainly do pray off of people's ignorance and lack of experience most of the time.

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:30 am

mechashivaz wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:48 pm
I get your argument about sup comps trying to make people get extra gains and then everyone cheers and shares but in my experience over time most people will eventually settle on established companies that have quality reputations, or hopefully that's the case.
Todays "established company" with a "quality reputation" was yesterdays up and coming "cheers and share". A bit of information: I am a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to the whole fitness/body building/martial art scene :smile: I have been lifting, punching and running; non-stop, for the past 22 years.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tenma
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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Tenma » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:59 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:07 pm
Thing is, when it comes to juice heads (in particular) no amount of facts is going to make them change their (stunted mental capacity) brains. Problem is that steroids effect one's mental functioning, as well as one's physical capacity. When you have the testosterone levels of a 17 year old surging through your veins, you are going to act like a 17 year old.
Ahem! How dare thee! I am almost 17(just a long wait from now)! How dare you assume how much testosterone we have! :tongue:

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Sentient Light » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:50 pm
mechashivaz wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:55 pm
Also your comment about 80% of protein sups have roids in them is utterly absurd and dishonest.
It is neither absurd nor dishonest. I am not in the habit of lying. Right Speech and Precepts, yah know? It was a study published in a renowned muscle mag. Like it or lump it.
Why would they put anabolic steroids in the protein powder? It's not meant to be taken orally...
There are lots of steroids that can be taken orally.

Anadrol and Dianabol and Anavar are some of the most "popular" ones among body-builders.

Body building is broken up into a number of categories, the fitness category is what the pictured "monk" fits into. Actually, Dianabol is a favorite with the fitness crowd. I have yet to meet a body builder that is not taking something.
The idea that they would be dropping dbol into protein powder is absolutely ridiculous though. You would cause a lot of people to inadvertently be tested out of their competitive federations.

I am a retired raw powerlifter, a former Virginia state champion, four-time record holder, nationally ranked with USAPL. And yes, the vast majority of bodybuilders and powerlifters are juicing, even in the clean federations like USAPL, that it is a lot harder to tell. Some people just have freak genetics. I was among them (I am 5'6" and have extremely short legs and long arms, so I was able to squat and dead significantly more in my weight class than many others). I have also trained football players that you might otherwise swear to be juicing, and I can vouch for certainty that they are not (particularly the ones that asked me about starting to juice later on).

I never juiced myself. I definitely thought about it. I have nothing against it. If I'd wanted to put in that much work to try to climb the tops of the untested federations, I probably would have. But plenty of people in strength sports don't. Or don't yet. Many have a philosophy of not starting until you've gone as far as you can without.
A bit of information: I am a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to the whole fitness/body building/martial art scene
Of course, this explains things a bit better. I've been in the game for about 15 years myself... we come from very different generations of strength sports culture. The Generation X lifters definitely juiced at a higher frequency -- aesthetics were different back then and there was a different concept of priority. In powerlifting, that generation basically did not even do raw lifting competitions at all -- everything was equipped, for decades, until my generation came on the scene and demanded more raw meets because we didn't care to do it equipped.

So with this context, I actually do agree. In your day, everything everyone in the culture has ever told me about that era of lifters... yes, everyone was doing something. But it's not really the case anymore, because it's fallen out of "fashion."
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Re: Body building and steroids

Post by mechashivaz » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:40 pm

:good:

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:30 am

Sentient Light wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:09 pm
Of course, this explains things a bit better. I've been in the game for about 15 years myself... we come from very different generations of strength sports culture. The Generation X lifters definitely juiced at a higher frequency -- aesthetics were different back then and there was a different concept of priority. In powerlifting, that generation basically did not even do raw lifting competitions at all -- everything was equipped, for decades, until my generation came on the scene and demanded more raw meets because we didn't care to do it equipped.
Back in '94, in order to qualify to take part in a "natural" body building event, you only had to be off the juice for about 3 years.
So with this context, I actually do agree. In your day, everything everyone in the culture has ever told me about that era of lifters... yes, everyone was doing something. But it's not really the case anymore, because it's fallen out of "fashion."
C'mon man... Synth oil injections (for example)?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Authorities Hunt Down Monk For Being Too Ripped

Post by Sentient Light » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:30 am
Back in '94, in order to qualify to take part in a "natural" body building event, you only had to be off the juice for about 3 years.
That is at least in part because of it being impossible to test for "have you ever juiced in your life"? It kind of sucks, sure, since doing even one cycle 10-15 years ago will give a lifter a significant advantage over a lifetime drug-free lifter, but I wouldn't know how you could prove it if they made a "lifetime drug-free" rule in federations.
C'mon man... Synth oil injections (for example)?
I don't even know what that is. At least in my circles, if people were juicing at all, it was either test enanthate or trem+dbol.
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:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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