Great Vegan Debate

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Mantrik
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:09 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:13 am
The month of Saga Dawa has started. Peaking on the next full moon. What a wonderful time to be vegetarian for a few days. Even not preparing meat in the house till the full moon. Anything helps.
I was in Vietnam a couple of weeks ago for the United Nations Vesak Day conference. They had the most incredible buffet of vegan and vegetarian food I have ever seen in my life for the participants.

After the conference I stayed a few more days in Hanoi to see the city. It is full of vegan restaurants for the Mahayana crowd.

I ate some incredible food.

Even the standard restaurants all had vegetarian and vegan versions of their dishes.

It is stupid to say that this or that particular diet is inherently healthy or unhealthy. It depends on so many factors: how you eat, what you eat, when you eat it, what you combine it with, your activity levels, certain genetic factors, etc...

I, for example, have been a vegetarian for over 25 years. For the past few years I have been eating a little meat ritually, once or twice a month. I had blood tests recently and they found borderline high cholesterol levels!!! And that even though I exercise intensely at least three times a week.

WTF???

AND not only am I vegetarian, but I also eat really well: Heaps of fruit and vegetables. No fried foods (well, maybe once every couple of weeks I will eat some freshly fried potato chips cooked in local olive oil). Minimal high fat cheeses. Lots of locally grown products. Very little sugar. No junk food. Etc...

:shrug:
Not all vegetarian fats are good, but sometimes the main reason for high cholesterol, especially the 'bad' stuff, is genetic.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:37 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:42 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:09 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:13 am
The month of Saga Dawa has started. Peaking on the next full moon. What a wonderful time to be vegetarian for a few days. Even not preparing meat in the house till the full moon. Anything helps.
I was in Vietnam a couple of weeks ago for the United Nations Vesak Day conference. They had the most incredible buffet of vegan and vegetarian food I have ever seen in my life for the participants.

After the conference I stayed a few more days in Hanoi to see the city. It is full of vegan restaurants for the Mahayana crowd.

I ate some incredible food.

Even the standard restaurants all had vegetarian and vegan versions of their dishes.

It is stupid to say that this or that particular diet is inherently healthy or unhealthy. It depends on so many factors: how you eat, what you eat, when you eat it, what you combine it with, your activity levels, certain genetic factors, etc...

I, for example, have been a vegetarian for over 25 years. For the past few years I have been eating a little meat ritually, once or twice a month. I had blood tests recently and they found borderline high cholesterol levels!!! And that even though I exercise intensely at least three times a week.

WTF???

AND not only am I vegetarian, but I also eat really well: Heaps of fruit and vegetables. No fried foods (well, maybe once every couple of weeks I will eat some freshly fried potato chips cooked in local olive oil). Minimal high fat cheeses. Lots of locally grown products. Very little sugar. No junk food. Etc...

:shrug:
Not all vegetarian fats are good, but sometimes the main reason for high cholesterol, especially the 'bad' stuff, is genetic.
My whole family has low HDL, the only thing we have ever been able to do to affect it is lose weight - pretty much all extra weight, it's to the point where even 5-10 extra pounds has an affect. Diet seems to have literally no effect on the numbers, other than indirectly by helping one lose weight.

I exercise like hell, I do stuff that would make a lot of people puke in terms of pure intensity... It doesn't make me lose weight (still shaped more and more like a potato every day, frankly), nor does it affect my cholesterol numbers. It -does- improve my blood pressure, which when taken alongside the low HDL, high LDL numbers makes for a lower risk of heart disease etc.

The worse my numbers have ever been was the last time I was vegetarian I think. I grant you that I was more overweight, and this was the main factor, but a vegetarian diet doesn't really guarantee anything. Our bodies also just get worse at dealing with everything as we age, that's samsara for ya.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Nemo
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Nemo » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:59 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:09 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:13 am
The month of Saga Dawa has started. Peaking on the next full moon. What a wonderful time to be vegetarian for a few days. Even not preparing meat in the house till the full moon. Anything helps.
I was in Vietnam a couple of weeks ago for the United Nations Vesak Day conference. They had the most incredible buffet of vegan and vegetarian food I have ever seen in my life for the participants.

After the conference I stayed a few more days in Hanoi to see the city. It is full of vegan restaurants for the Mahayana crowd.

I ate some incredible food.

Even the standard restaurants all had vegetarian and vegan versions of their dishes.

It is stupid to say that this or that particular diet is inherently healthy or unhealthy. It depends on so many factors: how you eat, what you eat, when you eat it, what you combine it with, your activity levels, certain genetic factors, etc...

I, for example, have been a vegetarian for over 25 years. For the past few years I have been eating a little meat ritually, once or twice a month. I had blood tests recently and they found borderline high cholesterol levels!!! And that even though I exercise intensely at least three times a week.

WTF???

AND not only am I vegetarian, but I also eat really well: Heaps of fruit and vegetables. No fried foods (well, maybe once every couple of weeks I will eat some freshly fried potato chips cooked in local olive oil). Minimal high fat cheeses. Lots of locally grown products. Very little sugar. No junk food. Etc...

:shrug:
Last time I tried to go veg it was winter. Winters here are brutal contests of survival so making that change in summer is much easier. My body hates it long term but a few weeks is easy. I was hungry all the time the first 5 days vegetarian but then it went away. Sweeping generalizations about the dubious health benefits of fringe diets are silly. Deciding to eat fewer animals to reduce their suffering is pretty solid though.

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Grigoris
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:03 pm

Nemo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:59 pm
Deciding to eat fewer animals to reduce their suffering is pretty solid though.
That is basically my motivation.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Nemo
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Nemo » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:03 pm
Nemo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:59 pm
Deciding to eat fewer animals to reduce their suffering is pretty solid though.
That is basically my motivation.
But are you really vegetarian? Isn't that like saying you aren't a cannibal because you haven't eaten anyone lately. :rolleye:

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Grigoris
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:23 pm

Nemo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:11 pm
But are you really vegetarian? Isn't that like saying you aren't a cannibal because you haven't eaten anyone lately. :rolleye:
You mean because I eat some meat in ritual practice?

Yes, I still consider myself a vegetarian.

Just like I still consider that I keep the fifth precept, although I drink some alcohol ritually.

Tsok is not the same as going to a bar and ordering a burger and a beer.

Not in the slightest.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Nemo » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:23 pm
Nemo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:11 pm
But are you really vegetarian? Isn't that like saying you aren't a cannibal because you haven't eaten anyone lately. :rolleye:
You mean because I eat some meat in ritual practice?

Yes, I still consider myself a vegetarian.

Just like I still consider that I keep the fifth precept, although I drink some alcohol ritually.

Tsok is not the same as going to a bar and ordering a burger and a beer.

Not in the slightest.
I was just joking. I knew some Brahmins from Sri Lanka who would tease vegetarians that they weren't REAL vegetarians unless they had never eaten meat in their entire life. Their take on the no true Scotsman prank.

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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Nemo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:36 pm

Honestly going veg is not going amazing. My coffee consumption has doubled and I ate half a box of cookies last night which I never do.

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Miroku
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Miroku » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:06 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:36 pm
Honestly going veg is not going amazing. My coffee consumption has doubled and I ate half a box of cookies last night which I never do.
You might need more lentils or other carb sources to have enough calories.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

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Mantrik
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:08 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:36 pm
Honestly going veg is not going amazing. My coffee consumption has doubled and I ate half a box of cookies last night which I never do.
Me neither. It's the whole box or nothing!

Snacking slowly on nuts may work better as the protein satisfies appetite better than a load of sugar and fat.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Mirror » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:03 pm

I would argue that if everyone saw how meat is made from the point of the birth of an animal until the day they are killed, there would be no person who would eat meat or animal products. I would understand arguments from a farmer, but not from someone who just buy meat in a supermarket or in a butchery and eat it. How silly is thinking that we human beings need meat or animal products for our survival :thinking: , when our ancestors started eating it a few thousand years ago, but long before they had been eating only fruits and vegetables for a few milion years. Just look at countries where people are poor enough that they can't afford animal products and meat.

I won't argue with someone who at least haven't seen some ducomentaries about animal "well-being" like Earthlings, Lucent, Dominion, etc. Just see this from Australia:

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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:59 pm


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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:15 pm

Mirror wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:03 pm
I would argue that if everyone saw how meat is made from the point of the birth of an animal until the day they are killed, there would be no person who would eat meat or animal products. I would understand arguments from a farmer, but not from someone who just buy meat in a supermarket or in a butchery and eat it. How silly is thinking that we human beings need meat or animal products for our survival :thinking: , when our ancestors started eating it a few thousand years ago, but long before they had been eating only fruits and vegetables for a few milion years. Just look at countries where people are poor enough that they can't afford animal products and meat.
This really misunderstands most people's agency in creating industrial agriculture. Simply watching a film about terrible things will not do this, unless someone is simply an emotional decision maker. If it did, people would wake up tomorrow and stop paying taxes and buying gasoline after seeing a wedding party bombed by a US drone for instance. But they don't, because the amount of agency involved in a given individual creating that system is infinitesimally small. It is a myth (and one which benefits giant corporations immensely) that individual consumers bear equal amounts of responsibility for the systems they operate in.

I won't argue with someone who at least haven't seen some ducomentaries about animal "well-being" like Earthlings, Lucent, Dominion, etc. Just see this from Australia:
I've seen all those. They are indeed very upsetting. Have you watched a video of Iraqi's, Afghanis etc. being slaughtered by Western weaponry? That kind of stuff also does not stop people from continuing to pay taxes and live in the systems they do.

We all bear some small bit of karmic debt for these things, but it is proportional to the amount of power we have to actually affect these systems, and for most people that amount is very small.
Just look at countries where people are poor enough that they can't afford animal products and meat.
Since very few of those people are vegetarian by choice, I'm not sure what relevance that has.
but long before they had been eating only fruits and vegetables for a few milion years.
Do you have a source on that?
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by DharmaN00b » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:00 am

The veneer of civilization is awfully thin. Our tastes and anthropogenic leanings are deeply hard-wired so much so decision making is at best a post-hoc rationalization.

Strip away the gated communities, the buffer of affluence, the convenience etc and the disparity becomes abundantly clear. When tensions within our own species reach critical mass well, you know, we're brown bread.

I hope I'm wrong, alas we tend to thrive on shock and awe. Dominion is right on the money.
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Grigoris
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:05 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:36 pm
Honestly going veg is not going amazing. My coffee consumption has doubled and I ate half a box of cookies last night which I never do.
Nuts and fruit man.

I eat about a pound of nuts a week and lots of fruit.

Better to snack on these.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Miroku
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Miroku » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:05 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:36 pm
Honestly going veg is not going amazing. My coffee consumption has doubled and I ate half a box of cookies last night which I never do.
Nuts and fruit man.

I eat about a pound of nuts a week and lots of fruit.

Better to snack on these.
Yup! It can get pretty expensive especially the nuts, but man that is the best snack of 'em all. Healthy and tasty. :good:
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

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Grigoris
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:49 pm

Miroku wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 pm
Yup! It can get pretty expensive especially the nuts, but man that is the best snack of 'em all. Healthy and tasty. :good:
It definitely can. But peanuts (preferably dry roasted) tend to be cheap, as are sunflower seeds.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Miroku
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Miroku » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:49 pm
Miroku wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 pm
Yup! It can get pretty expensive especially the nuts, but man that is the best snack of 'em all. Healthy and tasty. :good:
It definitely can. But peanuts (preferably dry roasted) tend to be cheap, as are sunflower seeds.
Yup those two are the best. Peanuts (even salted) are great in salads too. Plus let us not forget flax seeds, however those are best crushed or ground as they are basically impossible to digest when whole. Also great (and not everywhere normal or even legal) add on are poppy seeds. Amazing source of calcium.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by rory » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:53 am

Miroku wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:58 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:49 pm
Miroku wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 pm
Yup! It can get pretty expensive especially the nuts, but man that is the best snack of 'em all. Healthy and tasty. :good:
It definitely can. But peanuts (preferably dry roasted) tend to be cheap, as are sunflower seeds.
Yup those two are the best. Peanuts (even salted) are great in salads too. Plus let us not forget flax seeds, however those are best crushed or ground as they are basically impossible to digest when whole. Also great (and not everywhere normal or even legal) add on are poppy seeds. Amazing source of calcium.
I love pistachios, delicious. Pepitas, dried pumpkin seeds are good for you and fruit in season doesn't have to be expensive either, though my favorite snack are grapes. If you don't have junk food in your house; you don't eat it. But It sounds like Nemo isn't eating a well-balanced vegetarian diet and so living on caffeine etc to make up for it.
gassho
Rory
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Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:34 pm

IN ADDITION:

Tashi delek,

Also nice to know some Tibetan interpretations about veganism.
Compassion is here a factor.

The best meditation is no meditation

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