The harms of Masturbation and Porn

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theanarchist
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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:47 pm

One other thing that comes to my mind is, desire frightenes people, because it's a factor in life that you don't have much influence on.

So it's either sheer fear of a seemingly overpowering force, or some kind of narcissistic wound that I am not the master, I am not in control.

I guess that's what drives people to develop eating disorders, when the fear of the perceived inner impulses and the urge to gain control over oneself becomes overwhelming.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:37 pm

Zhen Li wrote: Well you said sense desire has to be transformed. So, QED, masturbation can be transformative. If you think this is going to far, then sorry for attributing this to you, but you could have clarified this exception.
That is a silly assumption to make, if you actually made it.

Zhen Li wrote: And essentially, the idea that renunciation isn't useful in Mahayana is odd to me, even as an upaya, since it's found in pretty much every Mahayana Sutra. Heck, Bodhisattvas renounce all their property and entire lives for the Dharma. Just look at Sadaprarudita or Visvantara. Ch'an is all about watching those desires arise and not attaching to them. Seeing the nature of your mind, as Bodhidharma says, makes one have no interest in sensuality.
I didn't say renunciation isn't part of the standard Mahayana approach, obviously it is. You are either not reading what people are writing, or misrepresenting it..I hope it's the former. Watching desires arise and not attaching, that is shamatha 101. In some Vajrayana practices, you transform things that arise into aspects of the mandala, and so see the union of emptiness and appearance. One explanation i've read is that In sutra level silent meditation forms, you can see emptiness of something like desire, but it is sort of binary, you have to kind of step out of appearances to see the emptiness.. in Tantra you are seeing both at once.

Zhen Li wrote: If you are the deity, as in sadhana, then this is basic mindfulness. There's no transformation here. There's no point claiming I should know this stuff, since I don't at all. I don't see the transformation. If this is just a loose term that is being thrown around, the I apologise for being distracted. But it seems like you and duckfiasco were suggesting that unwholesome dharmas really can be transformed into wholesome ones like water transforms into vapor or ice. This COULD be a very useful practice if it works that way, but as far as I know, it doesn't. Or it's a metaphor that doesn't quite correspond to practice. Having a blank doctrine with no reasoning or explanation behind it really doesn't help one in daily life, except to help one have a more positive mindset, which may be why one finds it in self-help books related to Tantra so often. Before you accuse me of anything again, or claim I am attacking something, I am not being facetious, I am being honest about my knowledge of these things. I am just seeking answers that you claim to have, if you don't, then okay, we can leave it at that.
It is definitely not just "basic mindfulness". This is exactly why I recommended books or similar to get an idea of what is going on with Tantra, if you are actually interested. Something like self-generation has volumes and volumes written on it, including lots of specifics on how it works with attachment, and it extends way beyond "basic mindfulness. I gave you the most abridged, simplified version of my understanding of how Tantra works with desire, if it doesn't make sense to you at this point that's ok, it's a big subject and there are better sources than me (hence the recommendations) but don't say the information wasn't provided because you can't contextualize it.
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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:52 pm

theanarchist wrote:And you completely ignore the fact that in the end only the direct realisation of emptiness nature can eradicate desire and attachment. No amount of renunciation is a causal cure for desire and attachment. Why? Because attachment is not simply the disturbing emotion of greed and lust, attachment is the direkt result of a wrong view and as long as the wrong view is present, desire and attachment will be present, too.
No, I didn't. I said that many times. Wisdom is the key.
theanarchist wrote:Nobody said it is not a useful tool or practiced in mahayana. Can you please stop interpreting everything through your black and white tinted glasses?


It's seen as ONE tools among others.

It's seen as a temporary tool but not a solution for the actual problem.

There are plenty of people in mahayana who decide to live as renunciate, even vajrayana practitioners. There are others who don't.
No, the renunciatory path was clearly being viewed as something in contradistinction to that of transformation.
theanarchist wrote:Someone who has fully realized the deity has no use for the pure land of Amitabha as taught in pure land schools, because he or she turns this very place at this very moment into the pure land.
Doesn't explain how akausalya turns into kausalya. If we're talking about transforming views, that's one thing, but transforming actual emotions, is a spatial metaphor that doesn't quite apply to practice.

Clearly you folks are looking past what I'm writing and what my opinion is.

I think I'll leave it here. I don't really like having to keep replying like this. It's usually just a question of people making an effort at understanding one another's views best. I tried my best, and I think I'm throwing in the towel now.
:namaste:

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:09 pm

If you could explain what you mean by "actual emotions" that may be helpful, if you want to unthrow in the towel :)

Masturbation or lust aren't transformative activities. They are rather transformed through the non-discriminating activity of the buddhas, like all the particular realities of our own lives, including our defilements. Transformed into what? Compassionate wisdom. Since we don't suppose inherently existing purity or sin like Christians might, what exactly is being "transformed" is the delusive reactivity of the mind, the habituated confusion of clinging, aversion, and ignorance in experienced life. This is very real stuff in terms of daily life, not some wishy-washy "now I feel a bit better about myself" trip.

It's important to remember too that the Dharma and especially Pure Land is an experiential undertaking. In the two personal examples I gave, the nembutsu is like a ray that illuminates the actual nature of various sufferings, and in the realization of even temporarily releasing the self-identified suffering, great love and gratitude flood in. A beautiful metaphor I've read is we become like bits of rubble turned to gold. Whatever the technical details may be, the experience for me at least is one of transformation. I feel it would be a mistake to underestimate the scope of Amitabha or any other buddha.

So again how this relates to the topic, it may be a stretch to flatly equate masturbation with compassionate activity, but my point remains that it's possible to masturbate with a motivation other than instant gratification. It's also my view that even lust can be of use. If your use is that you see no use for it and abandon it, that's all well and good; but others may feel differently.

Being familiar with the interplay of Self-Power and Other-Power, you also know the potential trap of the "sundry practices" including even the Precepts: feeling one is free from the passions can be like a shipwrecked man clinging to a piece of wood thinking he's really quite dry compared to his shipmates floundering in the water. That is, one must be very careful with practices that appear to be a self liberating a self.
Last edited by Monlam Tharchin on Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:15 pm

Thank you for your explanation duckfiasco. :anjali:

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:18 pm

I need to stop editing my posts 10 times after I send them :rolleye: I hope you wouldn't mind explaining your phrase "actual emotions". I admit a lot of terminology is new to me, especially the foreign language terms like akausalya and kausalya.

Thanks for your patience :cheers:

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:24 pm

Doesn't explain how akausalya turns into kausalya. If we're talking about transforming views, that's one thing, but transforming actual emotions, is a spatial metaphor that doesn't quite apply to practice.
In tantra, the five poisons get transformed into the five wisdoms, you don't have to understand it, but that is one concept at play.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... a_families" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_wisdoms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:48 pm

Zhen Li wrote: Doesn't explain how akausalya turns into kausalya. If we're talking about transforming views, that's one thing, but transforming actual emotions, is a spatial metaphor that doesn't quite apply to practice.:


If you apply the view of emptines nature, the conflicting emotion can arise and it will do no harm because you will not have attachment or afterthoughts about it, nor will you feel any inclination to act upon what arises in your mind to the disadvantage of anyone. They will still arise, but they are kind of detoxified. And you can live freely, you don't have to keep away from 2928278 things just because your mind might end up sticking to it or reveling in revulsion.


All the transformative techniques work via a tiny spark of wisdom of emptiness nature.

For example very very rarely I have nightmares. I woke up once from an intense one in a pretty much disturbed state of mind and felt awful. I simply decided to recite mantra and after about 15 minutes or so it was completely gone, replaced by a sensation of serene, almost blissful peace and well-being. I went back to sleep with no problems at all. The impact of it was far beyond the effect of simple concentration on an object. THAT is the transformative power of vajrayana, with mantra the sound representative of buddha nature/dharmakaya.
When the negative emotion is transformed you will not simply feel normal, neutral, rather the energy of the emotion is still there, but the impure aspect removed and so it becomes something really good and worthwile.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:00 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Doesn't explain how akausalya turns into kausalya. If we're talking about transforming views, that's one thing, but transforming actual emotions, is a spatial metaphor that doesn't quite apply to practice.
In tantra, the five poisons get transformed into the five wisdoms, you don't have to understand it, but that is one concept at play.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... a_families" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_wisdoms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


That's because impure emotion is still inborn mental energy. Remove the impurity and you have the mental process of a buddha, which is expressed as the five wisdoms. The five wisdoms are already there in deluded thoughts and emotions. If you remove the misunderstanding of delusion they can shine as what they are.


That's the reason why in vajrayana, as soon when you can handle the transformative methods you are not advised to counteract emotions with antidotes or look for peaceful states of mind like shamata. Because the emotions will aid your practice and progress (if, and only if you can transform them, this is what makes this path tricky and potentially dangerous, relying purely on this method is pretty advanced, if at this point you fool yourself and get unhinged on delusion instead of transforming it's likely that you end up in hell)

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:47 pm

:good:
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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Pureland123 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:24 pm

How do you keep your mind off sexual desire

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:43 am

It's like falling asleep. If you try too hard and keep thinking about it you'll never manage. You just engage yourself in something else. I engage myself in studies, meditation, and prayers/recitation.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by greentara » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:59 am

Its interesting that in these times of the neo conservatives proliferating and draconian clampdowns, persecution of whistle blowers ...the powers that be can do nothing about porn?
Obviously they want it to flourish, to diminish the reasonable man to nothing but a voyeur of flesh, to be a weakling, glued to the screen, addicted to the fantasy which is far from the reality of a normal sexual relationship.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by madhusudan » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:57 pm

greentara wrote:Its interesting that in these times of the neo conservatives proliferating and draconian clampdowns, persecution of whistle blowers ...the powers that be can do nothing about porn?
Obviously they want it to flourish, to diminish the reasonable man to nothing but a voyeur of flesh, to be a weakling, glued to the screen, addicted to the fantasy which is far from the reality of a normal sexual relationship.
Yes, I agree. In terms of my limited understanding of the triune brain model, the reproductive function, or sexual center, is located in the R-complex. Called the "reptilian brain", it is the lowest, earliest, most basic part of the brain which deals with survival of the body. A primary goal of the controllers is to keep people as "consumers", IE animals, or in my personal term "sh-t machines"

In terms of Buddhism, my current understanding is that because of ignorance of reality, addiction to desire and aversion create suffering. So, viewing pornography is creating negative karma (habits, patterns and imprints) which, obviously, take one further from liberation from them. This is, of course, in conventional terms. Please excuse my errors.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Dan74 » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:17 pm

...or it could be simply that porn is multi-million (billion?) dollar industry and capitalism is amoral - it's about making money?

But yes, conspiracy explanations have more emotional appeal.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by madhusudan » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:07 pm

Dan74 wrote:...or it could be simply that porn is multi-million (billion?) dollar industry and capitalism is amoral - it's about making money?

But yes, conspiracy explanations have more emotional appeal.
Or both us of could be right. Imagine!

But, yes, the feeling of being right has strong emotional appeal.

Have a nice day.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Alex123 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:28 pm

Pureland123 wrote:How do you keep your mind off sexual desire
Limit your food intake as much as possible. Every other day 24 hour fast works really well for me.
Occupy yourself with some sort of activity that will keep you busy.
Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks can find its way to the ocean"

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by lorem » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:42 pm

If you habitualize yourself to viewing genitals what's going to happen in the bardo?

Forgot how Trungpa put it but don't go towards man/woman making love.
I should be meditating.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by odysseus » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:36 am

I tried to stay clear of sexual questions, but what´s the problem really? Jacking off is OK and sex is allowed. Buddhists don´t have to look like dried up eunuchs. Have a good time, just don´t break the ethics of your own mind.

And don´t brag about your sex, you´ll never know who´s got better than yourself. lol

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Alex123 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:24 am

odysseus wrote: but what´s the problem really? Jacking off is OK and sex is allowed.
It is expression of greed and kleshas which bring more trouble than pleasure. BTW, masturbation doesn't even feel that good. Peaceful meditation feels so much better!
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