The harms of Masturbation and Porn

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Zhen Li
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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:15 am

Malcolm wrote:I think you mean craving, but whatever. No, in reality, the cause of all of these things is the knowledge obscuration of ignorance; rather than the afflictive ignorance of the "first" nidāna of dependent origination.
Well going to the Agamas/Nikayas, the roots of wholesome and unwholesome action are usually stated as lobha, moha and dosa and then when looking at things big picture ignorance is given with the nidanas. I mean lobha here.
Malcolm wrote:You did not answer her question.
To ask about the "type" of negative karma is redundant. It's already stated: negative.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Reibeam » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:27 am

I find an ironic thing to notice here is that the antagonist against masturbation and apparently sex in general of this discussion has an avatar that harkens to the sexuality of many sentient beings as part of the selection of a mate particularly through the use of desire. :emb:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peafowl

Those peacock feathers aren't just for introducing you to your natural condition :smile:

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Reibeam » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:30 am

But I guess your peacock is not aroused

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:31 am

I don't mind.

I'm not an antagonist against masturbation or sex, I'm not telling people not to do it, I'm talking about what it's harms are and how it can be viewed from the perspective of Dharma.

My image is actually a reference to the peacocks in Sukhāvatī who constantly speak Dharma.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by DGA » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:33 am

Zhen Li wrote:My image is actually a reference to the peacocks in Sukhāvatī who constantly speak Dharma.
:good:

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Reibeam » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:41 am

Zhen Li wrote:I don't mind.

I'm not an antagonist against masturbation or sex, I'm not telling people not to do it, I'm talking about what it's harms are and how it can be viewed from the perspective of Dharma.

My image is actually a reference to the peacocks in Sukhāvatī who constantly speak Dharma.
Zhen Li, I am just kidding. This discussion has been informative and interesting to watch. Forgive me for being rude to you.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Rakz » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:48 am

Zhen Li wrote:I don't mind.

I'm not an antagonist against masturbation or sex, I'm not telling people not to do it, I'm talking about what it's harms are and how it can be viewed from the perspective of Dharma.

My image is actually a reference to the peacocks in Sukhāvatī who constantly speak Dharma.
Is your goal to be reborn in Sukhavati? You don't even need to follow basic precepts as a precondition let alone worry about busting nuts or not. I don't get why you are being so uptight over this minor issue.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:58 am

It's an interesting topic.

Sukhāvatī is also a generalized religious goal: see Schopen, Gregory, 1977, "Sukhāvatī as a generalized religious goal in sanskrit mahāyāna sūtra literature," Indo-Iranian Journal, vol. 19 (3), 177-210.

But yes, I am also specifically a Pureland practitioner, but I practice in a Chinese tradition so that pretty much means I also practice the rest of Mahayana as well.

Also, Pureland doesn't necessitate refutation of other parts of the Dharma.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Rakz » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:56 am

I don't reject other parts of the Dharma either. Personally I use the five precepts for my own mental well being and it that also means collecting some karmic brownie points on the way then that's good also, but I leave my liberation up to the Primal Vow.

The Chinese tradition is tough so hats off to you for being able to practice it.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:22 am

From the thread about banning discussions about homosexuality:
If you have a quote about HHDL being against gay rights, can you please post it?^
Here it is: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Dala ... 836591.php
A quote from the above link that is pertinent to this thread:
HHDL wrote:"Even with your own wife, using one's mouth or the other hole is sexual misconduct," he said. "Using one's hand, that is sexual misconduct."
Ok, so guess what? By that criteria during my life I've committed sexual misconduct. :rolling:

I also still eat meat, even thought the head of my sect has called for the institutions under his jurisdiction to become vegetarian.

But quite frankly, I've got more important themes to address in my practice than those right now.

********************************************************************************************************************

^Actually HHDL did not say anything against "gay rights" per se. In fact he said,
"From society's viewpoint, mutually agreeable homosexual relations can be of mutual benefit, enjoyable and harmless."
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:17 am

Tenso wrote:I don't reject other parts of the Dharma either. Personally I use the five precepts for my own mental well being and it that also means collecting some karmic brownie points on the way then that's good also, but I leave my liberation up to the Primal Vow.

The Chinese tradition is tough so hats off to you for being able to practice it.
Well, I think in modern Chinese traditions, if a teacher was asked a question on this topic by a lay person they would probably say, certainly, pornography should be avoided (I know in my tradition this is said), but masturbation would probably not be discussed directly, or something that people agree with would be said, as in, not encourage it, but not reject it. That's skilful means. In the Chinese tradition, the most serious practitioners are typically monks or nuns anyway, except for people who are too old to ordain, who often live at the monastery permanently to volunteer and essentially live like monastics.

On the other hand, if you ask most lay people in the same tradition, I imagine you might find some opinions opposed, but also many people who argue that it's fine, as on this forum. Where I am coming from is the academic side of things, so I am interested in what has been said historically. Whereas, from a practitioner's perspective, or also from someone who holds the precepts but doesn't practice much, typically what you will find is flexibility and openness to new ways of looking at things. If I was simply coming from the practitioner's perspective, I might simply agree with this. After all, the path has to be easy to follow if this world is difficult to endure (Saha), otherwise we'll lose people - this is really what the spirit of Pureland helps with, an easier path for people in the modern world.

For a time I was able to keep my academic and practice worlds separate, but there is some degree of cognitive dissonance there. I am coming to see that this approach isn't welcome on a forum for believers, where canons and authorities are rejected and accepted - something that I don't care for, since they have no justification outside of belief. Some people think that I am a conservative for holding positions contrary to libertine values. Nothing could be further from the truth. But this synthesis may make my views on some topics appear ancient - which may be socially inappropriate. I am willing to adjust my perspective. This means either accepting cognitive dissonance, or ignoring, or remaining silent on those matters which are not socially accepted in this age.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by flavio81 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:10 am

It's midnight, I'm alone with nothing to do, time for you-know-what. Yay!!

Seriously, I just recalled a phrase by either Tilopa or Naropa:

"The problem is not enjoyment. The problem is grasping. Cut through your attachment, son."

Pleasure is not a problem per se.
If this is a virtual sangha, do we achieve virtualization instead of realization?

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:03 am

Zhen Li wrote: Exactly so. I am not sure if you have done any intensive meditation, but perhaps it doesn't strike you as particularly important. But all of this stuff leaves rubbish in our minds. Meditation in the dhyanas require overcoming the 5 hindrances, the first of which is kāmacchanda, sensory desire. This kind of rubbish isn't really seen by worldlings, but people who meditate notice it and realise what its doing on a deeper level.:

During intensive meditation periods it's not recommended to have sex. But it's also recommended that you stay in seclusion and don't meet people other than your retreat comrades.

You spend considerable time on an internet forum chatting, so currently very obvsioulsy you are not in a period of intensive meditation. So currently having sex, with yourself or another, should be fine for you, unless of course you are a monk or nun.


So more insults, you, claim not to be a worldling, because at one time in your life you did a meditation retreat and now reject sex, other people who don't share your opinions are automatically not serious dharma practitioners.

Again, your accusations (other people are not buddhists, worldlings etc) don't give the impression that you are a spiritually very developed person. So I find your claim not to be a worldling really ridiculous. The amount of time you spend here squabbling about sex makes it very clear that you are quite as "worldling" as I am.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:11 am

Zhen Li wrote:Dopamine is mind altering, and indulging in the causes of dysregulation in the brain's reward system is very damaging.

Sex is mentally and physically damaging, it's an incredibly filthy and disease prone activity, some of which can cause death..

Now you are blatantly lying, because what you write now totally contradicts what you wrote only a few days ago, which was a highly emotional, irrational, aversion fuelled post.

Zhen Li wrote:
I'm not an antagonist against masturbation or sex, I'm not telling people not to do it, I'm talking about what it's harms are and how it can be viewed from the perspective of Dharma..

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by srivijaya » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:16 am

Dan74 wrote:My understanding is that desire energy is channeled to more wholesome uses due to insight, due to the ending of the delusions. In the meantime we exercise restraint, build awareness around the habitual urges, and gradually see the choice not to immediately gratify them as the right one.
:good:
Being aware of the habitual process which underpins sexual desire is helpful. There is a process of appraisal, judgment etc which precedes subsequent action. This process is itself a manifestation of self-making and dukkha. The act itself is a banal physical process, the "harm" is in missing the preceding stages

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:24 am

Zhen Li wrote: I'm talking about what it's harms are and how it can be viewed from the perspective of Dharma..


If you are a proponent of an ascetic lifestyle, which in itself is completely fine if it's the kind of path that suits you, then hanging out on the internet for hours, getting involved in lengthy, emotional discussions on forums is not what fits that renouncing dharma lifestyle.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Dan74 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:58 am

Lets steer clear of ad homs, folks! People may express views we find unpleasant and wrong, but this is our task to deal with and respond to in a civil constructive manner, address the view rather than the person.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:20 pm

theanarchist wrote:Now you are blatantly lying, because what you write now totally contradicts what you wrote only a few days ago, which was a highly emotional, irrational, aversion fuelled post.
The problem is missing the nuances of language. I thought this was straightforward, but perhaps my background in formal logic gives me a false impression. If I am describing the disadvantages of X, you take that as advocating antagonism to X, when it is nothing of the sort. When I say I am only describing the disadvantages of X, you say I am a liar, because you think I also advocate antagonism to X. The latter is a complete fabrication.
theanarchist wrote:If you are a proponent of an ascetic lifestyle, which in itself is completely fine if it's the kind of path that suits you, then hanging out on the internet for hours, getting involved in lengthy, emotional discussions on forums is not what fits that renouncing dharma lifestyle.
Once again, this is just being personal, but 1.5 posts a day isn't too much. We're talking in abstract about a topic here, not about what I should do or what you should do.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:33 pm

Dan74 wrote:Lets steer clear of ad homs, folks! People may express views we find unpleasant and wrong, .

This has nothing to do with unpleasant and wrong views. It's about contradictory messages.

On one hand claiming to basically living the life of an ascetic, blaming others to not be proper dharma practitioners, but on the other hand spending hours on internet forums, getting caught up in emotions like aversion and pride while doing so. How believable is that? If masturbation is to be avoided in your ascetic lifestyle, then clearly spending too much time on the internet is to be avoided, too.

On one hand throwing preachy fits about the filthyness, dangers and evil of sex and masturbation in the style of a fundamentalist Christian pastor, then, two days later claiming, no, I have never suggested to anyone to not do it...blah...blah.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:41 pm

Zhen Li wrote:We're talking in abstract about a topic here, not about what I should do or what you should do.

Blaming others to not be proper buddhists, judging, belittling their practice and archievements just because the admit to masturbate or don't find masturbating very harmful is clearly breaking your bodhisattva vows.

And over the last few days you have posted more than 1.5 posts a day. And particularly you posted your numerous posts per day distributed over a longer period of time, so you must have been online either multiple times a day or the whole day long.
Last edited by theanarchist on Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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