The harms of Masturbation and Porn

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theanarchist
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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:16 am

Zhen Li wrote:
You're not going to get lasting happiness through sensuality, it will always be fleeting.

Nope. But who expects that of masturbating. Or eating a piece of cake.

theanarchist
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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:17 am

Zhen Li wrote: Some people care only for bodily healthy (including the brain). But that ends with death..

So what. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Buy that piece of cake and DIG IN ! just don't expect it to be more than it is and you are fine.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:20 am

theanarchist wrote:
Zhen Li wrote:They do when the occasional turns to the dependent.
In most people it doesn't. Just like in the majority of people the occasional beer or glass of wine, or lottery ticket, or shopping spree doesn't.
That's besides the point. Drinking alcohol as an act is not inherently bad, but it clouds judgment, destroys one's intelligence, dissipates one's wealth, and can cause one to engage in more unwholesome behaviour. Lottery ticket buying is also an Auxiliary Destructive Action, i.e. gambling, it's a waste of time and money, and unless it involves genuine strategy, it is a form if insanity. Shopping sprees, i.e. buying stuff for the sake of it, is just flushing money down the toilet. It's even worse than gambling in this sense. You're better donating to the Sangha if you don't care for your money.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:24 am

Interestingly, during a teaching of Choden Rinpoche he defined attachment the following way:


Attachment is attributing properties to things that they don't have.


I was really puzzled because he is a very strict Gelugpa monk and I expected a lenthy sermon about craving, desire, lust, addiction, torturing emotional clinging etc. But nope, he described it as simply a wrong view about the properties of things.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:25 am

theanarchist wrote:
Zhen Li wrote:You're not going to get lasting happiness through sensuality, it will always be fleeting.
Nope. But who expects that of masturbating. Or eating a piece of cake.
People hold hedonistic tendencies unconsciously. This is just the way our genes wired us. Our genes tell us that happiness is in progeny, which means supporting our bodies with food and engaging in procreative sex. After the establishment of civilization, these require control, because we can get them more than is required for perpetuation of the race. But mere control and moderation aren't enough for nirvana.
theanarchist wrote: So what. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Buy that piece of cake and DIG IN ! just don't expect it to be more than it is and you are fine.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it if you want to. I'm saying it isn't going to be conducive to awakening. This is why in the vinaya you eat whatever is on your plate, not picking or choosing. Just accept. If you get cake on your plate. Great. If you get brussel sprouts, great!

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:26 am

theanarchist wrote:Interestingly, during a teaching of Choden Rinpoche he defined attachment the following way:


Attachment is attributing properties to things that they don't have.


I was really puzzled because he is a very strict Gelugpa monk and I expected a lenthy sermon about craving, desire, lust, addiction, torturing emotional clinging etc. But nope, he described it as simply a wrong view about the properties of things.
This is just the short version.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:33 am

Zhen Li wrote:
theanarchist wrote: Buy that piece of cake and DIG IN ! just don't expect it to be more than it is and you are fine.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it if you want to. I'm saying it isn't going to be conducive to awakening. This is why in the vinaya you eat whatever is on your plate, not picking or choosing. Just accept. If you get cake on your plate. Great. If you get brussel sprouts, great!

I would say it's more conductive than uptight puritanism and general fear of worldly pleasure like yours.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:37 am

I'm very relaxed and not at all fearful, and very easy going and smile and laugh all the time.

People say I probably have Asperger's though, just so you get an idea of the kind of personality I have, so I may come across as overly technical or specific and logical. But my emotions are not all connected to these matters. They are pretty much wholly separate and indifferent.
Last edited by Zhen Li on Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:38 am

Zhen Li wrote:
theanarchist wrote:Interestingly, during a teaching of Choden Rinpoche he defined attachment the following way:


Attachment is attributing properties to things that they don't have.


I was really puzzled because he is a very strict Gelugpa monk and I expected a lenthy sermon about craving, desire, lust, addiction, torturing emotional clinging etc. But nope, he described it as simply a wrong view about the properties of things.
This is just the short version.

By the way, you asked for the mantra of the 84 mahasiddhas. I have to warn you that most of them were ordinary householders, some living in quite luxurious lifestyles.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:39 am

theanarchist wrote:By the way, you asked for the mantra of the 84 mahasiddhas. I have to warn you that most of them were ordinary householders, some living in quite luxurious lifestyles.
So what? You got the mantras?

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:45 am

Zhen Li wrote:
People say I probably have Asperger's though, just so you get an idea of the kind of personality I have, so I may come across as overly technical or specific and logical.

The monks I know don't come across as having Aspergers. I know one person who is diagnosed with it. A need for order and categories to deal with things is very much a trait of this handicap.

Zhen Li wrote: But my emotions are not all connected to these matters. They are pretty much wholly separate and indifferent.

Indifferencd has nothing to do with dharma or successful practice. It's not the goal and not a sign of success on the path.


Plus, to be really no longer prone to attachment you have to attain a stable realisation of emptiness nature. I asked a high lama if there was any way to fix attachment and aversion without insight into emptiness nature and he said, not possible, it will always crop up if you don't have this realisation because your ignorance will fuel grasping.

So expecting having no attachment or claiming to have conquered attachment before attaining the bhumis is unrealistic.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:50 am

theanarchist wrote:Indifferencd has nothing to do with dharma or successful practice. It's not the goal and not a sign of success on the path.
Indifference just means not being affected by things. That means not being uptight or fearful. T'is all I meant.
theanarchist wrote:Plus, to be really no longer prone to attachment you have to attain a stable realisation of emptiness nature. I asked a high lama if there was any way to fix attachment and aversion without insight into emptiness nature and he said, not possible, it will always crop up if you don't have this realisation because your ignorance will fuel grasping.
I'm not saying I don't have attachment. I'm saying I'm pretty happy and generally easy going. These things don't come across on a text based internet forum. Well I could use more smilies, but who cares? :twothumbsup:

theanarchist
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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:54 am

Zhen Li wrote: Indifference just means not being affected by things. .


Again, that is unrealistic unless you are pretty advanced on the path.

Which you are probably not when people you interact with suspect that you might have Aspergers and suspect it to an extent that they talk to you about it.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:58 am

Actually, plenty of people can be described as being fairly indifferent or calm and collected, without being aryas.

No, they don't "talk to me about it." I could go into it, but it's a different topic and it's also too personal. Regardless, I see it is a strength, not a weakness.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:08 am

Zhen Li wrote:Actually, plenty of people can be described as being fairly indifferent or calm and collected, without being aryas.

No, they don't "talk to me about it." I could go into it, but it's a different topic and it's also too personal. Regardless, I see it is a strength, not a weakness.
If you study the 4 brahmaviharas properly, you will read that Equanimity is not just the neutral feelings you have towards people you don't know (neither enemy nor friend), that is merely indifference from ignorance. Immeasurable equanimity is like the attitude of a Rishi offering a banquet to everyone regardless of status and beyond aversion and attachment.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:09 am

Zhen Li wrote:Actually, plenty of people can be described as being fairly indifferent.

This is connected with ignorance, not with equanimity in a dharma sense.


That someone is outwardly calm and collected is no proof at all that the person has no attachment and aversion issues. It usually means the person has healthy coping mechanisms, has a relatively calm basic temperament or simply doesn't show the turmoil that's going on in his or her mind. but a facade of peace.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:50 pm

I didn't say indifference is equanimity, but I have my fair share of that too from time to time.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Zhen Li » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:40 pm

If one find that viewing masturbation as unwholesome is hurting one's self esteem, perhaps because they are having trouble living up to that view, then they're not ready for it. They just need different methods for now. In order to truly be disciplined and have a tamed mind takes a lot of work, and one typically cannot tackle the big things before one tackles the small things.

And again, it's a holistic practice. Yes, you start with improving your discipline, but that comes alongside examining your views and attachments, cultivating wisdom, and improving your meditative practice.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:47 pm

Zhen Li wrote: In order to truly be disciplined and have a tamed mind.

Having a tamed mind and discipline in a dharma sense has nothing to do with what we here in the west usually consider to be discipline.


Because the definition of discipline in buddhism is totally different to how the word is defined in western languages.

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Re: The harms of Masturbation and Porn

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:50 pm

theanarchist wrote:
Zhen Li wrote: In order to truly be disciplined and have a tamed mind.

Having a tamed mind and discipline in a dharma sense has nothing to do with what we here in the west usually consider to be discipline.


Because the definition of discipline in buddhism is totally different to how the word is defined in western languages.
Yeah, but you have to understand, Chinese Buddhists are obsessed with moral conduct...

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