Fish?

A place to discuss health and fitness, including healthy diets, etc.
Bristollad
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Fish?

Post by Bristollad » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:34 pm

I was just trying to be clear that when one looks at the Vinaya - the 3 extant traditions are very similar, including for this rule about meat eating. I agree that monastics in China and some other areas do not eat meat - and they connect this to their understanding of bodhicitta and the correct way to practise the Mahayana path. Many students and teachers of the Tibetan traditions agree with them and indeed the Dalai Lama instructed the monasteries in India against serving meat. Ven. Geshe Thubten Soepa, who wrote a book explaining why not eating meat was correct, said in an interview:
Today, in the Sera Monastery which is home to more than 6,000 monks and nuns, none are allowed to eat meat by monastery law. If some monastery security monk sees that they are eating or buying meat, then they are immediately given a fine of 1,000 rupees. There are other monasteries such as Gyudmed Tantric College, with over 500 monks who are vegetarians.
from Geshe Thubten Soepa:Nine Questions about Vegetarianism accessed at http://www.sangye.it/

gingercatni
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: Belfast Northern Ireland

Re: Fish?

Post by gingercatni » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:25 pm

The Buddha was very clear not to kill sentient beings, as all things fear death. For example when I net my goldfish to put them into their new tank they freak out, they're afraid. You very simply should not eat any form of meat be it animal or fish. Any one or "buddhist" school that advises you do so is bending the rules to suit themselves.

Bristollad
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Fish?

Post by Bristollad » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:42 pm

You very simply should not eat any form of meat be it animal or fish. Any one or "buddhist" school that advises you do so is bending the rules to suit themselves.
Which rules? As I've been at pains to point out, the 3 living traditions within the Vinaya all have similar rules regarding meat eating. The two traditions of Bodhisattva vows differ on this point, one not mentioning it and the other explicitly forbidding it. Some sutras also support not eating meat, others allow it if necesary. Also, there is a distinction made between killing sentient beings and eating meat. However, eating anything is meant to be to simply stay healthy so that one can practise and achieve the goal.

I'm over fifty and have been vegetarian for more than half my life - I'm not a rabid meat eater! :rolling: but unfortunately, the suffering of other sentient beings associated with me staying healthy and alive doesn't stop just by me not eating their flesh, I wish it would!

gingercatni
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: Belfast Northern Ireland

Re: Fish?

Post by gingercatni » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:25 pm

Bristollad wrote:
You very simply should not eat any form of meat be it animal or fish. Any one or "buddhist" school that advises you do so is bending the rules to suit themselves.
Which rules? As I've been at pains to point out, the 3 living traditions within the Vinaya all have similar rules regarding meat eating. The two traditions of Bodhisattva vows differ on this point, one not mentioning it and the other explicitly forbidding it. Some sutras also support not eating meat, others allow it if necesary. Also, there is a distinction made between killing sentient beings and eating meat. However, eating anything is meant to be to simply stay healthy so that one can practise and achieve the goal.

I'm over fifty and have been vegetarian for more than half my life - I'm not a rabid meat eater! :rolling: but unfortunately, the suffering of other sentient beings associated with me staying healthy and alive doesn't stop just by me not eating their flesh, I wish it would!
I refer to the Dhammapada chapter 10, verses 129 and 130
;

129. All tremble at violence; all fear death. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.
130. All tremble at violence; life is dear to all. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill

and

To avoid terror to living beings, let the disciple refrain from eating meat... the food of the wise is that which is consumed by the Sadhus
( holy men); it does not consist of meat... There may be some foolish people in the future that will say that I permitted meat-eating and partook of meat myself, but...meat eating  I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit.. I will not permit meat eating in any form, in any manner or in any place; it is unconditionally prohibited for all.


Good for you being vegetarian, one myself. All beings are sentient, go to your garden lift a rock and watch some little creature run for its life. Ultimately no one can practice compassion while on the sly consume the flesh of some creature that died in fear and who's life was just as important to them. :meditate:

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Fish?

Post by DGA » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:32 pm

gingercatni wrote:To avoid terror to living beings, let the disciple refrain from eating meat... the food of the wise is that which is consumed by the Sadhus( holy men); it does not consist of meat... There may be some foolish people in the future that will say that I permitted meat-eating and partook of meat myself, but...meat eating  I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit.. I will not permit meat eating in any form, in any manner or in any place; it is unconditionally prohibited for all.
Do you have a source for this quotation? Thanks

and for the benefit of our friends in Malaysia...

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... uru-mantra

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=140194146X

:heart: :heart:

gingercatni
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: Belfast Northern Ireland

Re: Fish?

Post by gingercatni » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:53 pm

DGA wrote:
gingercatni wrote:To avoid terror to living beings, let the disciple refrain from eating meat... the food of the wise is that which is consumed by the Sadhus( holy men); it does not consist of meat... There may be some foolish people in the future that will say that I permitted meat-eating and partook of meat myself, but...meat eating  I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit.. I will not permit meat eating in any form, in any manner or in any place; it is unconditionally prohibited for all.
Do you have a source for this quotation? Thanks

and for the benefit of our friends in Malaysia...

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... uru-mantra

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=140194146X

:heart: :heart:
I don't have my books with me to reference, but the sutta nipata from the many books I have references meat eating and there is the Lankavatara Sutra chapter 8 which references it directly, by saying not to do it. Google it, I'm sure someone has a pdf of it somewhere. :smile:

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2037
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Fish?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:17 am

Pretty odd to put a quote like that without a citation

crazy-man
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Fish?

Post by crazy-man » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:51 am

Lankavatara Sutra
http://lirs.ru/do/lanka_eng/lanka-chapter-4.htm#chap8
The Blessed One said this to him: For innumerable reasons, Mahāmati, the Bodhisattva, whose nature is compassion, is not to eat any meat; I will explain them: Mahāmati, in this long course of transmigration here, there is not one living being that, having assumed the form of a living being, has not been your mother, or father, or brother, or sister, or son, or daughter, or the one or the other, in various degrees of kinship; and when acquiring another form of life may live as a beast, as a domestic animal, as a bird, or as a womb-born, or as something standing in some relationship to you; [this being so] how can the Bodhisattva-Mahāsattva who desires to approach all living beings as if they were himself and to practise the Buddha-truths, eat the flesh of any living being that is of the same nature as himself? Even, Mahāmati, the Rakshasa, listening to the Tathagata's discourse on the highest essence of the Dharma, attained the notion of protecting [Buddhism], and, feeling pity, (246) refrains from eating flesh; how much more those who love the Dharma! Thus, Mahāmati, wherever there is the evolution of living beings, let people cherish the thought of kinship with them, and, thinking that all beings are [to be loved as if they were] an only child, let them refrain from eating meat. So with Bodhisattvas whose nature is compassion, [the eating of] meat is to be avoided by him. Even in exceptional cases, it is not [compassionate] of a Bodhisattva of good standing to eat meat. The flesh of a dog, an ass, a buffalo, a horse, a bull, or man, or any other [being], Mahāmati, that is not generally eaten by people, is sold on the roadside as mutton for the sake of money; and therefore, Mahāmati, the Bodhisattva should not eat meat.
Shurangama Sutra
http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Sh ... uotes.html
http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama/shurangama2_b.asp
4p 38 "Purna, thought and love become bound together so that people love each other and cannot bear to be apart. As a
result, ceaseless successive births of parents, children, and grandchildren occur in this world. And the basis for all that is
desire and greed.
4p 38-39 "Greed and emotional love feed on one another until the greed becomes insatiable. The result of that in this world
is the tendency of egg-born, womb-born, moisture-born, and transformation-born beings to devour one another to the extent
that their strength permits. The basis for all that is killing and greed.
4p 40 "Suppose a person eats a sheep. The sheep dies and becomes a person; the person dies and becomes a sheep, The
same applies in all rebirths among the ten categories. Through death after death and birth after birth, they eat each other. The
evil karma one is born with continues to the bounds of the future. The basis for all that is stealing and greed.
4p 42 "‘You owe me a life; I must repay my debt to you.’ Due to such causes and conditions we pass through hundreds of
thousands of eons in sustained cycle of birth and death.

6p 20 "After my cessation, in the Dharma-ending Age, these hordes of ghosts and spirits will abound, spreading like
wildfire as they argue that eating meat will bring one to the Bodhi Way.
6p 20-21 "Ananda, I permit the Bhikshus to eat five kinds of pure meat. This meat is actually a transformation brought into
being by my spiritual powers. It basically has no life-force. Those of you Brahmans who live in a climate so hot and humid, and on such sandy and rocky land, that vegetables will not grow; therefore, I have had to assist you with spiritual powers and compassion. Because of this magnanimous kindness and compassion, this so-called meat suits your taste. After my
extinction, how can those who eat the flesh of beings be called the disciples of Shakya?
6p 22 "You should know that these people who eat meat may gain some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they
are all great rakshasas. When their retribution ends, they are bound to sink into the bitter sea of birth and death. They are not
disciples of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle. How can such people
transcend the Triple Realm?
6p 23 "When you teach people of the world to cultivate samadhi, they must also cut off killing. This is the second clear and
decisive instruction on purity given by the Thus Come Ones, the Buddhas of the Past, World Honored Ones.
Siksha-Samuccaya
http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Bu ... nomeat.htm
Just so must he support himself by the physic that is always useful: but even then not with fish or flesh, because it is forbidden in the Lankâvatara Sutra. For thus it is said: "No flesh must be eaten; so I say to the pitiful Bodhisattva . . . . Because of kinship, because of its wrong, because it is produced by semen and uterine blood, the devotee should avoid flesh as improper for living creatures. The devotee should always avoid flesh, onions, intoxicants of different kinds, garlic of all sorts. He should avoid oil for anointing; he should not sleep on beds with hollow posts or holes or where there is danger for living creatures. . . . For gain a living creature is killed, for meat money is given: both these sinners are burnt in the Raurava Hell and other hells. . . .” And so on to this: "He that eats flesh in transgression of the words of a sage, the man of evil mind, for the destruction of the two worlds, after being dedicated under the gospel of Sâkya, those sinners go to the most awful hell; the flesh-eaters are burnt in terrible hells like Raurava. Flesh free from the three objections, not prepared, unasked, unsolicited, there is none: therefore one should not eat flesh. A devotee should not eat flesh, which is blamed by me and by the Buddhas: members of a family that eats carrion flesh, devour each other." . . . And so on to this: “Ill-smelling and abominable, mad, he is born in a Candâla, or Pukkasa family, amongst low-caste again and again. He is born to one sprung of a female imp, in a flesh-eating family, he is born to a she-bear or a cat, the vile wretch. In the Hastikakshya, the Nirvana, the Angulimàlika, and the Lankavatara Sutra, I have reprovedthe eating of flesh. By Buddhas and by Bodhisattvas and by religious persons it has been reprehended; if one eats it, he is always born shameless and mad. But by avoiding those who eat flesh men are born among brahmins or in a family of devotees, and one is intelligent and wealthy. In suspicion touching things seen and heard one should avoid allmeat; philosophers understand nothing if members of a family that eats carrion flesh. As passion would be an obstacle to deliverance, so would be such things as flesh, or intoxicants. In future time, the eaters of flesh, speakers of delusion, will say that flesh is proper, blameless, praised by the Buddhas. But the pious should take his morsel in moderation, against the grain, like a useful physic, as though .it were the flesh of his own son. I who abide in kindliness have always reprehended this food; [such an one] should keep company with lions and tigers and other beasts. Therefore one should not eat flesh, which disturbs men's natures because it hinders deliverance and righteousness: this is the work of the noble.
Buddhist Resources on Vegetarianism and Animal Welfare
http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Bu ... tures%20on

Bristollad
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Fish?

Post by Bristollad » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:00 pm

Here is a perspective from a Tibetan teacher associated with Larung Gar in which he answers a question about meat-eating. I think his position is in line with what I've heard from a great many teachers.
As for Tibetan Buddhist teachings’ attitude towards vegetarianism, what I must first state is: Tibetan Buddhism has never promoted, commended, or praised the custom of eating meat. Further, Tibetan disciples of the fourfold sangha are strictly prohibited from killing and eating meat to satisfy the cravings of their stomaches and palates. Since Buddhism has entered the Tibetan region, ethnic Tibetans have in general relied on meat that is pure in three aspects as the source of their meat diet. There is also no shortage of Tibetan eminent monks and masters who promoted vegetarianism. Highly accomplished masters like Chagme Rinpoche, Venerable Jigme Gyalwai Nyugu, Patrul Rinpoche, Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje, and Pema Thangton all encouraged vegetarianism and severely condemned the evil of killing and the corrupt custom of offering the flesh and blood of sentient beings. Many of them also set a personal example by not eating meat.
see here for the rest of his answer: http://www.khenposodargye.org/2013/10/on-vegetarianism/

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Fish?

Post by DGA » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:51 pm

gingercatni wrote:
DGA wrote:
gingercatni wrote:To avoid terror to living beings, let the disciple refrain from eating meat... the food of the wise is that which is consumed by the Sadhus( holy men); it does not consist of meat... There may be some foolish people in the future that will say that I permitted meat-eating and partook of meat myself, but...meat eating I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit.. I will not permit meat eating in any form, in any manner or in any place; it is unconditionally prohibited for all.
Do you have a source for this quotation? Thanks

and for the benefit of our friends in Malaysia...

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... uru-mantra

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=140194146X

:heart: :heart:
I don't have my books with me to reference, but the sutta nipata from the many books I have references meat eating and there is the Lankavatara Sutra chapter 8 which references it directly, by saying not to do it. Google it, I'm sure someone has a pdf of it somewhere. :smile:
With regard to that specific quotation... anyone got a source? particularly with the connection to the Dhammapada verses quoted above it?

I've only seen this in various online memes, and a quick google search turns up a blog attributed to a certain flamboyant fellow in Malaysia who, at least at the time, called himself a follower of the Dalai Lama. It would be sad if this person (or whomever he hires to write his blog posts) were also in the Fake Buddha Quotes business. Since he or his followers will likely read this post sooner or later, I'm offering him a few Easter eggs to discover.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=22183

gingercatni
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: Belfast Northern Ireland

Re: Fish?

Post by gingercatni » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:08 pm

DGA wrote:
gingercatni wrote:
DGA wrote:
Do you have a source for this quotation? Thanks

and for the benefit of our friends in Malaysia...

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... uru-mantra

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=140194146X

:heart: :heart:
I don't have my books with me to reference, but the sutta nipata from the many books I have references meat eating and there is the Lankavatara Sutra chapter 8 which references it directly, by saying not to do it. Google it, I'm sure someone has a pdf of it somewhere. :smile:
With regard to that specific quotation... anyone got a source? particularly with the connection to the Dhammapada verses quoted above it?

I've only seen this in various online memes, and a quick google search turns up a blog attributed to a certain flamboyant fellow in Malaysia who, at least at the time, called himself a follower of the Dalai Lama. It would be sad if this person (or whomever he hires to write his blog posts) were also in the Fake Buddha Quotes business. Since he or his followers will likely read this post sooner or later, I'm offering him a few Easter eggs to discover.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=22183
I'm away from home but have stuff in my cloud i'm looking through to find the exact source, however I have supplied direct source material already. I cannot understand why people would rely on a teacher's opinion on this, one would assume the Buddha would have final authority on this matter and this has been made clear.

I personally cannot see a way round nor should there be a way. We become Buddhist because we want to attain enlightenment an rescue sentient beings from suffering, it kind of steps on the toes of this when meat/fish is consumed. The first precept we take in practice is I undertake the rule of training to refrain from killing living creatures.

Bristollad
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Fish?

Post by Bristollad » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:06 am

I personally cannot see a way round nor should there be a way. We become Buddhist because we want to attain enlightenment an rescue sentient beings from suffering, it kind of steps on the toes of this when meat/fish is consumed. The first precept we take in practice is I undertake the rule of training to refrain from killing living creatures.
Because whether you like it or not, the Buddha drew a distinction between killing and eating meat or fish. Also, unlike privileged members of the first world like you or me, not everyone in the world has the choice to be a healthy vegetarian. No one is arguing that not eating meat is a good, a preferable thing. It's your black and white position that anyone who does eat meat cannot be following the Buddhist path that is disagreeable:
You very simply should not eat any form of meat be it animal or fish. Any one or "buddhist" school that advises you do so is bending the rules to suit themselves.
There is textual support for the position that not eating meat and fish is correct, BUT there is also textual support allowing eating meat and fish if necessary provided it is "pure in 3 ways". Just appealing to authority will not settle the matter. This is why many teachers take the position of encouraging vegetarianism while not enforcing it.

gingercatni
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: Belfast Northern Ireland

Re: Fish?

Post by gingercatni » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:32 am

Bristollad wrote:
I personally cannot see a way round nor should there be a way. We become Buddhist because we want to attain enlightenment an rescue sentient beings from suffering, it kind of steps on the toes of this when meat/fish is consumed. The first precept we take in practice is I undertake the rule of training to refrain from killing living creatures.
Because whether you like it or not, the Buddha drew a distinction between killing and eating meat or fish. Also, unlike privileged members of the first world like you or me, not everyone in the world has the choice to be a healthy vegetarian. No one is arguing that not eating meat is a good, a preferable thing. It's your black and white position that anyone who does eat meat cannot be following the Buddhist path that is disagreeable:
You very simply should not eat any form of meat be it animal or fish. Any one or "buddhist" school that advises you do so is bending the rules to suit themselves.
There is textual support for the position that not eating meat and fish is correct, BUT there is also textual support allowing eating meat and fish if necessary provided it is "pure in 3 ways". Just appealing to authority will not settle the matter. This is why many teachers take the position of encouraging vegetarianism while not enforcing it.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this lol:) Because of locale some of the most isolated places such as Bhutan, Nepal and those land locked between the border of the jointly controlled Kashmir have had a vegetarian diet. What is available in the west for vegetarians is simply due to the culture in which we live, referring back to Kashmir in which there is a sizeable Jain population which dietary restrictions are much more harsh, it is clear that people who wish to pursue a vegetarian meat free diet for their religion can and do practice it.

That and all that I have said previously is my own view. I try to keep to the Buddha's view on this. However before I was Buddhist I was a meat eater! So I am not devoid of karmic debt for eating meat. I became vegetarian in 2004 and Buddhist in 2008. Ultimately it is the individuals decision how they interpret the Buddha's words. But I do dislike it when people collectively try to find "loopholes" in the dharma in which to try and bend the teachings of the Buddha, I'm not being a zealot, but the teachings are there for a reason. However......... that said the Buddha the most compassionate being that he was, would I'm sure not condemn anyone with regards to the availability of dietary delights in their host country.

But away from the Buddha's teachings completely, and my own view again, whilst we continue to promote meat eating, this continues suffering on all beings and is counter productive to our goal to relieve the suffering of all beings #justsaying :meditate:

Post Reply

Return to “Wellness, Diet and Fitness”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests