Fish?

[Lux]

Hello everyone.

I've tried searching but the site seemed particularly slow at the time so I thought I'd post and ask.

I am curious of the Buddhist's position on eating fish. To my knowledge, vegetarianism is encouraged but I also know that this is observed to varying extents.

Thanks!

[Sentient Light]

Fish are regarded with any other sentient animal used for food, including insects. In Mahayana traditions (excluding Japan), it is forbidden for monastics to intentionally consume meat of any kind and it is considered inappropriate for lay followers to offer meat of any kind to monastics.

For lay people, we tend to observe fasts timed with the moon phase wherein a few times a month, we don't consume any meat products. Those who are already vegetarian will fast from more indulgent foods, like root vegetables, or may observe the single-meal-a-day precept, or may only take in a bowl of white rice in the morning. The frequency of observing these fasts and how far you want to take it is up to you.

My family observes on the new and full moons, plus the days following each, for a total of four days a month. If the day falls on a Sunday, then we move it to Monday because its' easier for us. I know some families that will observe the fast every Sunday; others will observe the fast for a full week on the weeks that the new and full moons fall on. One thing I should mention is that many of my family members are fishermen (Vietnamese are coastal people); we, of course, avoid fishing and the killing of fish during these observance days.

[Lux]

Thank you.

I suppose I'll be looking for quite a different diet, then.

Meat is still quite a large part of my diet and I've wanted to move away from it for quite some time. I was hoping to transition over to fish as I figured you can't really get much more free range than that.

[Fortyeightvows]

It requires killing many more animals to eat seafood. Where one cow can be killed to feed many people.

[crazy-man]

in the Palikanon, there are some Suttas
SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html

Sutta Nipāta, Brāhmaṇadhammika Sutta
https://suttacentral.net/en/snp2.7

Aṅguttara Nikāya 6.18 Macchika [Macchabandha] 8. Macchabandhasuttaṃ - Fishing
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html

Aṅguttara Nikāya 8.40 Apāya­saṃvattanika [Duccarita­vipāka]
https://suttacentral.net/en/an8.40

Aṅguttara Nikāya 10.177 Jāṇussoṇī [Jāṇussoṇi]
https://suttacentral.net/en/an10.177

Aṅguttara Nikāya 5.177 Vaṇijjā
https://suttacentral.net/en/an5.177

Sutta Nipāta 2.2 Āmagandha
https://suttacentral.net/en/snp2.2

Pāli Theravāda Vinaya, Khandhaka Bhesaj­jak­khan­dhaka
https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-kd6

[shaunc]

Fish are regarded with any other sentient animal used for food, including insects. In Mahayana traditions (excluding Japan), it is forbidden for monastics to intentionally consume meat of any kind and it is considered inappropriate for lay followers to offer .

Hi Sentinent light. I was wondering if you could please elaborate on why in Japanese Buddhism fish are not regarded as a Sentinent being. The 1st precept prohibits the taking of any kind of animal life. Does Japanese Buddhism have a different interpretation of this precept.
Thanks Shaun.

[Fortyeightvows]

Here it comes !

[shaunc]

Here it comes !

No 48vows. I'm not trying to start an Internet war. I fully realize that this subject has been flogged to death at various times. I'm just trying to educate myself and find out why fish are considered differently than other animals.
For the record I am a meat eater and this weekend I plan on going to the coast with my wife and children and fishing will no doubtedly be a part of our weekend and yes we eat what we catch.
Don't stress about it. It's my karma, not yours.

[Fortyeightvows]

阿彌陀佛

[shaunc]

阿彌陀佛

Sorry but I have no idea what this is/means.

[Fortyeightvows]

Amitabha

[shaunc]

Thank you.

[Rakz]

Love eating fish, all kinds of fish.

[crazy-man]

Does Japanese Buddhism have a different interpretation of this precept.

Any history of food in Japan has to include the many centuries when eating the meat of four-legged animals was forbidden. The first law prohibiting meat eating was issued in the year 675, a little more than 100 years after the arrival of Buddhism.
In the 7th and 8th centuries, when a new emperor came to the throne he would issue an Imperial edict forbidding meat consumption. This was because, according to Buddhist belief, killing animals is wrong. The fact that these edicts were issued from time to time indicates that some found it hard to give up eating meat. But by around the 10th century just about everyone had stopped eating it.
In China and the Korean peninsula, the Buddhist clergy were not allowed to eat meat or fish, but in Japan even ordinary people did not eat meat. This was partly because of Buddhism, and partly because even the indigenous religion, Shinto, considered that eating the flesh of animals was unclean.
But the rule extended only to meat from mammals, not seafood. Whales are mammals, but the common folk thought of them as big fish and there was no prohibition against killing and eating them. Wild birds were also eaten. There was a belief that chickens and roosters were messengers working for the Shinto gods, and their meat and eggs were not eaten until the 15th century.
The indigenous Ainu of Hokkaido in northern Japan depended considerably on food from wild birds, animals and plants, and deer and bear meat was an important part of their diet. In the far south, the Ryukyu Kingdom in the Okinawan islands was in a different jurisdiction and prohibitions against meat eating did not apply. People there raised pigs, goats and other animals and ate their meat. In mountainous areas on the main islands of Japan, people who made their living fishing the mountain streams would hunt wild mammals for their fur and medicinal properties, and eat the meat of what they caught. And others, hoping to cure some illness or build up their strength, might practice kusuri-gui (eating medicinal flesh of wild animals). But in spite of all this, animals were not raised for meat, and for many centuries meat consumption in Japan was remarkably low.
Like their neighbors in China and the Korean peninsula, the Japanese did not drink the milk of domestic animals, and the manufacture of dairy products did not occur until much later. It is no wonder, then, that preparing fish for the table developed into a fine art.

http://web-japan.org/nipponia/nipponia3 ... ure01.html

[shaunc]

Thanks crazy man. It seems to be more of a cultural practice than a religious practice but like so many of these things the lines are often blurred

[Bristollad]

In Mahayana traditions (excluding Japan), it is forbidden for monastics to intentionally consume meat of any kind

Not quite true. In the Tibetan tradition it is forbidden for monastics to eat meat from animals they know have been intentionally killed for them personally. Eating meat from an animal which has died naturally is permissable as is eating meat bought from a general market. Some teachers advocate not eating meat including His Holiness the Dalai Lama, if that is possible for someone (not everyone can be a healthy vegetarian or vegan).

[Sentient Light]

Not quite true. In the Tibetan tradition it is forbidden for monastics to eat meat from animals they know have been intentionally killed for them personally. Eating meat from an animal which has died naturally is permissable as is eating meat bought from a general market. Some teachers advocate not eating meat including His Holiness the Dalai Lama, if that is possible for someone (not everyone can be a healthy vegetarian or vegan).

Sorry, I was excluding Vajrayana from my usage of "Mahayana" there, with the understanding that Tantric practices require different observations. When I referred to "Mahayana", I meant monastics following the Dharmaguptaka vinaya.

[amanitamusc]

Love eating fish, all kinds of fish.

Oh, Darwin shark?

[Bristollad]

Not quite true. In the Tibetan tradition it is forbidden for monastics to eat meat from animals they know have been intentionally killed for them personally. Eating meat from an animal which has died naturally is permissable as is eating meat bought from a general market. Some teachers advocate not eating meat including His Holiness the Dalai Lama, if that is possible for someone (not everyone can be a healthy vegetarian or vegan).

Sorry, I was excluding Vajrayana from my usage of "Mahayana" there, with the understanding that Tantric practices require different observations. When I referred to "Mahayana", I meant monastics following the Dharmaguptaka vinaya.

Vajrayana is not separate from Mahayana. I was not talking about tantric practise. The use of meat in the diet is allowed by the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya. As far as I'm aware the rule in Dharmaguptaka vinaya is the same and both are virtually identical with the Theravadin vinaya rule on this. However meat eating in China by monastics is forsaken due to following the prohibitions in texts such as the Brahma Net sutra, the Nirvana Sutra and Lankavatara Sutra, not because it is against a vinaya rule.

[Sentient Light]

Vajrayana is not separate from Mahayana. I was not talking about tantric practise. The use of meat in the diet is allowed by the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya. As far as I'm aware the rule in Dharmaguptaka vinaya is the same and both are virtually identical with the Theravadin vinaya rule on this. However meat eating in China by monastics is forsaken due to following the prohibitions in texts such as the Brahma Net sutra, the Nirvana Sutra and Lankavatara Sutra, not because it is against a vinaya rule.

I didn't say it was part of a vinaya rule. I was clarifying that when I referred to "Mahayana", I was referring to monastics who observe the Dharmaguptaka vinaya, as these are the monastics who follow the practices I had described in my first post.

And I realize that Vajrayana are not technically distinct from Mahayana. I was, again, clarifying that my usage of the term in that first post was in reference to the Dharmaguptaka-ordained monastics only, as they are my off-hand reflexive reference with regard to the term "Mahayana." Not trying to exclude your traditions, just disclaiming that in that post, I was making that exclusion.