Great Vegan Debate

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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg »

Simon E. wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:00 pm
For that reason..I’m out.
You keep using these words. I do not think you know what they mean.

:tongue:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg »

tatpurusa wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:37 am
Queequeg wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:02 am Tatpurusa, its all kinds of ridiculous to argue the transcendence of mundane right and wrong on a freaking internet discussion forum. If you're so far along, what are you doing wasting your time arguing that meat is OK here on DW? Give me a break.
If people have transcended this triple world and now abide beyond good and bad karma, then really, do they need to be arguing page after page with vegans who, as far as I can tell, have their hearts in the right place, even if what they are arguing is not a Buddhist teaching?
Thanks for your trying to ridicule me personally or my arguments, indeed it looks - as you claim - that you have your heart in the right place.
For the record, I have never claimed any degree of accomplishment, because these things are completely personal and I would not even speak about it in personal conversations, let alone internet boards.
What I am referring to are Vajrayana teachings, not my personal accomplishments. In Vajrayana we have lineage masters going back hundreds and thousands of years, fully enlightened bodhisattvas. They have their commitments (samaya), promises to practitioners belonging to the lineage.
As ChNN explained, they give those practitioners a guarantee through their commitment, that they will not get lost but achieve the ultimate goal, even if that might not happen within this lifetime. This is why it is considered appropriate for aspiring bodhisattvas to enter into karmic connections with other beings and take the responsibility to help them to libertate them once one has achieved that level of accomplishment.
This does not mean at all that one is claiming any degree of accomplishment at this point of time.
You can ridicule Vajrayana concepts, that is your personal freedom of choice, but it does not look appropriate to me to try to arrogantly ridicule practitioners because they follow those teachings.
I'm not ridiculing you, but you make these insinuations that others are claiming some sort of superiority. You did that for yourself. Go back and look at your posts addressing me. You are giving me advice. Maybe it came across wrong and the "you" you were addressing was a rhetorical "you" but it doesn't seem that way. When I pushed back on your advising me, you initially didn't clarify, but rather continued to address me.

I'm not ridiculing Vajrayana or anything of the sort. I've address you and Simon who have invoked your teachers and their teachings as the ultimate authority on this matter. These are articles of your faith. I rejoice in your faith. But, I'm pointing out, you're invoking the states of realization that take one out of the ordinary samsaric realm... and DW is decidedly in the Samsaric realm, Veganism as a philosophy is definitely samsaric. So it is ridiculous to make these kinds of arguments for almost 30 pages. If people don't share your faith, that's really the end of the matter.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
Simon E.
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Simon E. »

PeterC wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:39 pm
Simon E. wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:00 pm
PeterC wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:00 am

I once went through a vegan phase; one of my gurus, who eats meat on doctors' instructions, made fun of me for my lack of knowledge of nutrition, and asked me to give him scriptural and scientific justifications for veganism. I told him I felt unqualified to debate this issue as I lacked sufficient knowledge, but that perhaps he could take it up with Chatral Rinpoche, who I'm sure knew the scriptural arguments better than me, and whom I knew he respected? He gave me a "you had to go there, didn't you" look in response.
I should have known better than to have a serious non emotive discussion on this topic. It has never happened on DW yet.
For that reason..I’m out.
:namaste:
I hope I didn't inadvertently offend. My point was - there are great lamas who eat meat, and great lamas who don't, and *they* don't seem to have any issue at all with each others' diets, so why should we? I'm not sure there's much of a debate one can really have beyond that. It is clearly meritorious to avoid eating meat out of compassion for animals, and the 16th Karmapa probably felt that too, given where he chose to die. However it doesn't appear to be an obstacle of any kind for those who choose to eat meat.

FWIW my vegan phase didn't last long. But my dietary decisions have always been driven by health concerns.
No I wasn’t responding to your post Peter. No offence taken.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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rory
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by rory »

For the meat eaters here, when cell-cultured meat becomes available, will you eat it? Considering that it will reduce animal cruelty by a considerable extent and the ongoing degradation of the environment.
https://newfoodeconomy.org/cell-culture ... framework/
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg »

rory wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:34 pm For the meat eaters here, when cell-cultured meat becomes available, will you eat it? Considering that it will reduce animal cruelty by a considerable extent and the ongoing degradation of the environment.
https://newfoodeconomy.org/cell-culture ... framework/
gassho
Rory
Maybe. Depends on how healthy it is.

More critically, will it be vegan?

I imagine it would be like an MP3 to Live Music, even when its perfected.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

rory wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:34 pm For the meat eaters here, when cell-cultured meat becomes available, will you eat it? Considering that it will reduce animal cruelty by a considerable extent and the ongoing degradation of the environment.
https://newfoodeconomy.org/cell-culture ... framework/
gassho
Rory
From what I've read it doesn't sound particularly likely in the first place.

That said, I would want to know a lot about it's safety etc. If it was safe, and solved the problem it purports to solve: of course.
I mean, this is a quote from the very article you posted:
Proponents of lab-grown meat say the technology has the potential to drastically impact those emissions by removing much of the animal agriculture food chain from the production of meat. But that claim is unproven—and may turn out to be problematic. A recent study from Oxford found that, theoretically, cultured meat could actually increase greenhouse gas emissions, by replacing the methane produced by livestock with longer-lasting carbon dioxide as fossil fuels are burned to power industrial facilities.
Another article from the same site:

https://newfoodeconomy.org/new-harvest- ... -lab-meat/

I'm personally skeptical of technological solutions fixing social issues. The rising demand in meat has correlated with a rise in wealth in the countries in which it's happened, as people get richer, they generally start eating more meat. Meat demand is projected to go up in the "developing" world. There are deep social and cultural issues at play, and I doubt some new product is going to solve it.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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rory
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by rory »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:18 pm Maybe. Depends on how healthy it is.

More critically, will it be vegan?

I imagine it would be like an MP3 to Live Music, even when its perfected.
QQ, I would never eat it, cannot imagine it would be regarded as vegan.

Johnny D:
there are deep social and cultural issues at play, and I doubt some new product is going to solve it.
this goes to Queequeg's point, I think organic small farm-raised meat will be a sign of the wealthy as cell-cultured meat becomes popular. In the US the govt subsidizes the meat and dairy industy it's why meat and milk are so cheap. I wish it would stop and market forces would come into play. In China they're having an epidemic of pig plague, it's wiping out the pig population to historical low levels.

Ironically an impossible burger is amazingly expensive, most health food is, the price of seitan is insane, equal to steak and gets top dollar as the idea is that elites eat it. So it has a lot of cachet! Once the new middle and upper classes get strokes and heart attacks like here they'll probably start with a very expensive imported faux meat for the $ cachet and then probably turn to their own cuisine for vegetarian/vegan dishes
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

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rory wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:53 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:18 pm Maybe. Depends on how healthy it is.

More critically, will it be vegan?

I imagine it would be like an MP3 to Live Music, even when its perfected.
QQ, I would never eat it, cannot imagine it would be regarded as vegan.

Johnny D:
there are deep social and cultural issues at play, and I doubt some new product is going to solve it.
this goes to Queequeg's point, I think organic small farm-raised meat will be a sign of the wealthy as cell-cultured meat becomes popular. In the US the govt subsidizes the meat and dairy industy it's why meat and milk are so cheap. I wish it would stop and market forces would come into play. In China they're having an epidemic of pig plague, it's wiping out the pig population to historical low levels.

Ironically an impossible burger is amazingly expensive, most health food is, the price of seitan is insane, equal to steak and gets top dollar as the idea is that elites eat it. So it has a lot of cachet! Once the new middle and upper classes get strokes and heart attacks like here they'll probably start with a very expensive imported faux meat for the $ cachet and then probably turn to their own cuisine for vegetarian/vegan dishes
gassho
Rory

A commercial cell-cultured product does not even exist yet. All there are are a couple of companies claiming they are ready to go to market, it could all be smoke and mirrors. From what I've read, it's anything but imminent. The idea that all omnivores are suffering stroke and heart attack as a result of eating an omnivorous diet is nonsense. Eating tons of meat and being sedentary? Yes, of course that’s awful for you. Clearly though, it’s not modifying anyone’s behavior much.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:31 pm I'm personally skeptical of technological solutions fixing social issues.
This seems to be one of the issues at the heart of so many of our problems now. The view among the establishment types is that technology (driven by market forces) will solve the problems. That's what these people tell themselves and I'm certain is a major reason why there is so much inertia in taking steps to address anything.

For so many people who don't get to eat meat, its a luxury that they want as soon as they can afford it. Has nothing to do with taste or health or anything. There are crass things I could say about people who make it from humble backgrounds only to spend their money on ostentatious crap.

Ironically, the ones accustomed to plenty, spend their money to in a sense have less.If you can afford to live the bobo high life, you send your kid to waldorf schools and ban tv and other electronic devices from your child's life; feed them organic, macrobiotic, plant based diets, etc. As pretentious as all that is, it wouldn't be a bad thing if we all lived with those opportunities.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg »

This is kind of getting away from the whole vegan subject... but...

I have a good friend who is a personal trainer/life coach. Haitian guy. He advises his clients to basically eat what he calls slave food - collared greens, bread fruit, bait fish (mackeral and sardines, etc.) - stuff that a generation ago was looked down on but now gets prime shelf space at whole foods at inflated prices. He complains how people in his community have problems with obesity and diabetes, heart disease, etc. because they have in their mind that eating piles of meat at every meal is the good life.

It reminds me of a documentary I saw a while back on Autralian Aborigines who live on processed food and soda and now have all the health issues, but then compares their traditional diets.

The argument probably should be taken with a grain of salt - people didn't grow that tall on those traditional diets - maybe for better? Maybe we've become freakishly tall in the scheme of things?

Musings.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by ford_truckin »

rory wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:34 pm For the meat eaters here, when cell-cultured meat becomes available, will you eat it? Considering that it will reduce animal cruelty by a considerable extent and the ongoing degradation of the environment.
https://newfoodeconomy.org/cell-culture ... framework/
gassho
Rory
As long as it tastes like real meat I wouldn't have a problem with it.
tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:32 pm collared greens, bread fruit, bait fish (mackeral and sardines, etc.) - stuff that a generation ago was looked down on but now gets prime shelf space at whole foods at inflated prices. He complains how people in his community have problems with obesity and diabetes, heart disease, etc. because they have in their mind that eating piles of meat at every meal is the good life.
This is actually excellent nutrition.
Mackerel and sardines are the fattiest fish, full of omega 3. Hardly could you find anything healthier than these fish and greens, vegetables.
The problem is there is every times less fish in the seas, so I don't think it would be sustainable if everybody ate it every day.
tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa »

rory wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:34 pm For the meat eaters here, when cell-cultured meat becomes available, will you eat it? Considering that it will reduce animal cruelty by a considerable extent and the ongoing degradation of the environment.
https://newfoodeconomy.org/cell-culture ... framework/
gassho
Rory
I would not even try it. I have no doubt at all that there will be "scientifc studies" proving it is perfectly safe and healthy. Basically many scientist just do the research which they are paid for. If the results do not fit the expectations of those paying for the research, it will simply be ignored and never published.

Here are some info regarding this "meat".

http://nourishingtraditions.com/lab-mea ... QtCYGMcBJw
https://themindunleashed.com/2019/02/us ... -beef.html
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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg »

tatpurusa wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:15 am
Queequeg wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:32 pm collared greens, bread fruit, bait fish (mackeral and sardines, etc.) - stuff that a generation ago was looked down on but now gets prime shelf space at whole foods at inflated prices. He complains how people in his community have problems with obesity and diabetes, heart disease, etc. because they have in their mind that eating piles of meat at every meal is the good life.
This is actually excellent nutrition.
Mackerel and sardines are the fattiest fish, full of omega 3. Hardly could you find anything healthier than these fish and greens, vegetables.
The problem is there is every times less fish in the seas, so I don't think it would be sustainable if everybody ate it every day.
There's just too many of us. That's one of the things very few people are willing to even consider.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

rory wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:53 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:18 pm Maybe. Depends on how healthy it is.

More critically, will it be vegan?

I imagine it would be like an MP3 to Live Music, even when its perfected.
QQ, I would never eat it, cannot imagine it would be regarded as vegan.
Technically, no it wouldn't be vegan as long as they are using Fetal bovine serum medium to grow the meat cells on. Fetal bovine serum is what is typically used and it's obtained by slaughtering animals.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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rory
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by rory »

seeker242 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:15 am
rory wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:53 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:18 pm Maybe. Depends on how healthy it is.

More critically, will it be vegan?

I imagine it would be like an MP3 to Live Music, even when its perfected.
QQ, I would never eat it, cannot imagine it would be regarded as vegan.
Technically, no it wouldn't be vegan as long as they are using Fetal bovine serum medium to grow the meat cells on. Fetal bovine serum is what is typically used and it's obtained by slaughtering animals.
Interesting I didn't know that was the medium. Even if it were grown in a veg medium, just no.....
So how will we solve a growing world population wanting meat if not by technology? I think it's probably the least cruel solution....
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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seeker242
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by seeker242 »

rory wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:43 am Interesting I didn't know that was the medium. Even if it were grown in a veg medium, just no.....
So how will we solve a growing world population wanting meat if not by technology? I think it's probably the least cruel solution....
gassho
Rory
Most, if not all, vegans would be overjoyed if everyone switched to lab grown meat. They just wouldn't eat it themselves. :smile:
It would certainly be better than the way things are now. One way it could be done, at least in the US not by technology, would be things like stopping government welfare subsidies for it's production. In other words, to stop externalizing the true costs and let the actual costs be reflected in the price. The price of beef, in the US at least, is artificially lowered because the economics behind it is rigged in heavy favor of it. Some estimates estimate that if it wasn't a $5 big mac would actually cost about $12-13. Stop artificially rigging the economics and let the people who want it, pay the actual cost of it, instead of burdening the rest of society with that cost. People often wonder why a nice salad often costs more than a burger. Well, that's one of the main reasons.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by well wisher »

seeker242 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:33 pm
rory wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:43 am Interesting I didn't know that was the medium. Even if it were grown in a veg medium, just no.....
So how will we solve a growing world population wanting meat if not by technology? I think it's probably the least cruel solution....
gassho
Rory
Most, if not all, vegans would be overjoyed if everyone switched to lab grown meat. They just wouldn't eat it themselves. :smile:
It would certainly be better than the way things are now. One way it could be done, at least in the US not by technology, would be things like stopping government welfare subsidies for it's production. In other words, to stop externalizing the true costs and let the actual costs be reflected in the price. The price of beef, in the US at least, is artificially lowered because the economics behind it is rigged in heavy favor of it. Some estimates estimate that if it wasn't a $5 big mac would actually cost about $12-13. Stop artificially rigging the economics and let the people who want it, pay the actual cost of it, instead of burdening the rest of society with that cost. People often wonder why a nice salad often costs more than a burger. Well, that's one of the main reasons.
Good observations about the possible market price rigging and manipulations, I agree. We do not have a free and fair market economy right now, with the wealthiest big players (eg. big corporate tycoons or big government insiders) having way too much influence and control over against the average consumer and poor people in general.

Anyways, I would be happy and feel essential no guilt about eating lab meat, as long as its rigorously tested to avoid any hidden or undesirable side effects. Due to large amounts of bad news reported that is related to the greed and irresponsibility big- pharmacy and chemical industries, one cannot be too careful.

Even if lab grown meats productions run into troubles, we should remember that there already exist plenty of faux meat from various vegetable sources, I tried and I liked them. I just hope they become more affordable and popular. But I suppose some people have pickier taste buds than others, and I am not a connoisseur.
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by rory »

well wisher wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:52 am
Even if lab grown meats productions run into troubles, we should remember that there already exist plenty of faux meat from various vegetable sources, I tried and I liked them. I just hope they become more affordable and popular. But I suppose some people have pickier taste buds than others, and I am not a connoisseur.
Faux meats are wonderful, but the high prices aggravate me so, here is a terrific easy recipe to make seitan steaks. All you need is a bag of vital wheat gluten flour. If you make this, the secret is to simmer not boil the gluten. Boiling makes it spongy. This was a problem that had previously defeated my attempts, now they always come out great.
http://www.vegansandra.com/2015/11/perf ... teaks.html
There are also cookbooks on faux meats you can make chicken, sausages etc I've made the sausages and they came out very well. The irony is my family like Indian and Italian recipes, so we don't have them that much.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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well wisher
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by well wisher »

rory wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:12 am
well wisher wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:52 am
Even if lab grown meats productions run into troubles, we should remember that there already exist plenty of faux meat from various vegetable sources, I tried and I liked them. I just hope they become more affordable and popular. But I suppose some people have pickier taste buds than others, and I am not a connoisseur.
Faux meats are wonderful, but the high prices aggravate me so, here is a terrific easy recipe to make seitan steaks. All you need is a bag of vital wheat gluten flour. If you make this, the secret is to simmer not boil the gluten. Boiling makes it spongy. This was a problem that had previously defeated my attempts, now they always come out great.
http://www.vegansandra.com/2015/11/perf ... teaks.html
There are also cookbooks on faux meats you can make chicken, sausages etc I've made the sausages and they came out very well. The irony is my family like Indian and Italian recipes, so we don't have them that much.
gassho
Rory
Excellent recipe, thanks for sharing Rory, I really should try it out when the circumstances permit.
We are in consensus about the frustrations in the seemingly overpricing of the faux meats.

(I think it is mainly also because of the current unfair economic system, that produces widening wealth inequalities, which benefits mainly only the extremely-rich and politically connected, while most other people having stagnant or lower income to becoming poorer. Anyways that is another whole different off-topic.)
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