Veganism is an Eating Disorder

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:21 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:If our species was meant to live on a diet of animal products, why is it that so many of the most common diseases are related to our consumption of animal products? Heart disease is caused by saturated fat and cholesterol,
You do realise that dairy products are also a major culprit. But eating meat will not necessarily lead to these problems, there are many other factors involved like: if food is fried or not, what combination of foods one eats, salt levels, refined sugar levels, etc...
...and diabetes is caused by fat clogging our insulin receptors...
Ummmm, no it's not.
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:26 pm

I also fail to see how veganism can be considered an "extreme dietary choice", whilst eating the flesh of murdered sentient beings can be considered normal, logical and rational.
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:18 pm

justsit wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:For the first part I agree. However, in my experience, plenty of vegans and vegetarians (well, more vegans frankly) actually fit into the first category - of people who also have an unhealthy relationship with, and fixation on food.

That doesn't make them any different than all the other omnivores with an unhealthy relationship to food of course.. but for the louder, more judgemental ones (my favorite behavior is when people who do things like gag themselves in public when someone orders meat near them - classy), it sure makes them look like dilettantes. I know the other side can be just as bad, making fun of anyone who dares to mention begin vegan, etc.
I guess I must hang out with a different crowd or age group or something - not many hipsters in Delaware. Most vegans/vegetarians I know are older and have been eating that way for many years, it's no big deal and rarely comes up in conversation. I can't say as I've ever seen anyone gag themselves in public, although I have come across a few poseurs here and there.

Yes, I live in a college town with plenty of militant vegans and other such groups. I never thought people into all things "alternative" could irritate to the degree they do, since I've always considered myself pretty counter-culture...but man, these people have surpassed my expectations. In my town, the one's who don't posture are frankly tougher to find, though they are there, and being middle age helps.

I have seen people gag themselves in public, and do things like hold their nose to "gross" smells of meat, make comments on what other people are eating etc. a number of times, it's not terribly uncommon here, I'd wager.
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:48 am

Grigoris wrote:You do realise that dairy products are also a major culprit.
I only eat dairy products that are fat-free and cholesterol-free.
Grigoris wrote:Ummmm, no it's not.
What science are you using to make that assertion? According to the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which I quoted in that post, as well as many medical associations and journals, insulin resistance is caused by fat clogging our insulin receptors.

Here is another article:
Insulin resistance is the pathogenetic link underlying the different metabolic abnormalities clustering in the metabolic syndrome. It can be induced by different environmental factors, including dietary habits. Consumption of energy-dense/high fat diets is strongly and positively associated with overweight that, in turn, deteriorates insulin sensitivity, particularly when the excess of body fat is located in abdominal region. Nevertheless the link between fat intake and overweight is not limited to the high-energy content of fatty foods; the ability to oxidize dietary fat is impaired in some individuals genetically predisposed to obesity. Insulin sensitivity is also affected by the quality of dietary fat, independently of its effects on body weight. Epidemiological evidence and intervention studies clearly show that in humans saturated fat significantly worsen insulin-resistance, while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids improve it through modifications in the composition of cell membranes which reflect at least in part dietary fat composition.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15297079

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Ayu » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:37 am

Dharma Flower wrote:
Grigoris wrote:You do realise that dairy products are also a major culprit.
I only eat dairy products that are fat-free and cholesterol-free.
This is senseless.
I tried such a diet for about eight months. Pro: I really lost 12 pounds. Con: the cholesterol in my blood levels did not decrease at all. Not in the faintest.
Then I started to do some moderate sports (swimming, cycling, walking) on a daily basis. But I was not inspired anymore to follow that diet. When I met my doctor again she said: "Ah, you are really strict with your diet, aren't you? Your cholesterol level decreased very well."
Sum-up: Physical activity (and healthy natural food) has more input on the decrease of the cholesterol level than a cholesterol-free diet.
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:27 am

Dharma Flower wrote:What science are you using to make that assertion? According to the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which I quoted in that post, as well as many medical associations and journals, insulin resistance is caused by fat clogging our insulin receptors.

Here is another article:
Insulin resistance is the pathogenetic link underlying the different metabolic abnormalities clustering in the metabolic syndrome. It can be induced by different environmental factors, including dietary habits. Consumption of energy-dense/high fat diets is strongly and positively associated with overweight that, in turn, deteriorates insulin sensitivity, particularly when the excess of body fat is located in abdominal region. Nevertheless the link between fat intake and overweight is not limited to the high-energy content of fatty foods; the ability to oxidize dietary fat is impaired in some individuals genetically predisposed to obesity. Insulin sensitivity is also affected by the quality of dietary fat, independently of its effects on body weight. Epidemiological evidence and intervention studies clearly show that in humans saturated fat significantly worsen insulin-resistance, while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids improve it through modifications in the composition of cell membranes which reflect at least in part dietary fat composition.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15297079
Fat does not clog our insulin receptors, that is not what the article says. It is not even close to what the article says. Not even a little bit.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:35 am

Ayu wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:
Grigoris wrote:You do realise that dairy products are also a major culprit.
I only eat dairy products that are fat-free and cholesterol-free.
This is senseless.
I tried such a diet for about eight months.
I've already posted elsewhere on this forum on the benefits of a low-fat diet for someone at risk for heart disease. The science is pretty well-established on this. I wouldn't be choosing to cut the cholesterol and fat in my diet if not for first doing my own research, looking at articles from medical journals and listening to experts on heart disease like Dr. Dean Ornish. People need to make their own dietary decisions.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:00 am

Grigoris wrote:Fat does not clog our insulin receptors
As someone who is pre-diabetic, I wouldn't be cutting the fat out of my diet unless I believed that it decreased my chances of developing diabetes, based on actual studies and evidence.

High-fat diets cause insulin resistance despite an increase in muscle mitochondria
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2409421/
Background: A high dietary fat intake is involved in the pathogenesis of insulin resistance...

Conclusion: A high-fat, low-carbohydrate intake reduces the ability of insulin to suppress endogenous glucose production and alters the relation between oxidative and nonoxidative glucose disposal in a way that favors storage of glucose.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/73/3/554.full
Intramyocellular lipids are fats stored in droplets in muscle cells. They provide an important energy source for working muscle. During exercise, a large amount of circulating free fatty acids are directed into muscle cells for energy; during rest, incoming fatty acids are instead stored in the muscle cell as triglycerides for later burning.[1] However, an increase in muscle insulin resistance, caused by obesity, diabetes mellitus type 2, and metabolic syndrome, will result in an excess accumulation of intramyocellular lipids.[2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramyocellular_lipids

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:51 am

I read that tuna fish can be helpful to weight loss, so I put a half a can of tuna in my salad just to try it. I hadn't eaten any sort of animal flesh for two weeks, and tuna used to be one of my favorite foods.

Instead of enjoying it, though, it made me feel disgusted, because I couldn't stop thinking about how this was a rotting, dead animal. It upset my stomach. I also felt bad about eating it, because even if the label says "dolphin-safe," that doesn't mean dolphins aren't killed in the process:
U.S. “dolphin-safe” tuna endangers the entire marine ecosystem. By narrowly focusing on fishing methods rather than results, today’s “dolphin-safe” labels permit and encourage fishing methods oblivious to the bycatch of sharks, turtles, juvenile tunas, sea birds and other sea life...

The truth is that under current U.S. labeling standards, bycatch, including that of dolphins, does in fact occur and is unknown in most cases.

In 2012, the World Trade Organization ruled, after a full review of all of the scientific and empirical evidence, that “dolphin-safe” tuna standards established by Congress in 1990, while effective in motivating change at the time, are now outdated and, in fact, deceptive to U.S. consumers. The reality is that the U.S. law and "dolphin-safe" policy ONLY certifies that no harm occurred to dolphins if the tuna were caught in the ETP fishery. It found that even when thousands of dolphins are killed in the course of fishing for tuna outside of the ETP, the canned tuna bears the “dolphin-safe” label under the current labeling standards. More than 98% of the tuna in the U.S. market today is sourced from these and other unmonitored and untracked fisheries where thousands of dolphins are killed every year.
http://www.ecosafetuna.org/case-for-eco ... -isnt.html
The average person doesn't know that the World Trade Organization ruled against dolphin-safe labeling as a deceptive practice.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:14 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Fat does not clog our insulin receptors
As someone who is pre-diabetic, I wouldn't be cutting the fat out of my diet unless I believed that it decreased my chances of developing diabetes, based on actual studies and evidence.

High-fat diets cause insulin resistance despite an increase in muscle mitochondria
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2409421/
Background: A high dietary fat intake is involved in the pathogenesis of insulin resistance...

Conclusion: A high-fat, low-carbohydrate intake reduces the ability of insulin to suppress endogenous glucose production and alters the relation between oxidative and nonoxidative glucose disposal in a way that favors storage of glucose.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/73/3/554.full
Intramyocellular lipids are fats stored in droplets in muscle cells. They provide an important energy source for working muscle. During exercise, a large amount of circulating free fatty acids are directed into muscle cells for energy; during rest, incoming fatty acids are instead stored in the muscle cell as triglycerides for later burning.[1] However, an increase in muscle insulin resistance, caused by obesity, diabetes mellitus type 2, and metabolic syndrome, will result in an excess accumulation of intramyocellular lipids.[2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intramyocellular_lipids
Yes, fat is involved in the development of diabetes, without a doubt. But to say that "fat clogs our insulin receptors" is just plain wrong. You would do well to research cellular metabolism and the role of insulin.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:18 am

Grigoris wrote: But to say that "fat clogs our insulin receptors" is just plain wrong.
Prediabetes and type 2 diabetes are caused by a drop in insulin sensitivity blamed on “intramyocellular lipid,” the buildup of fat inside our muscle cells.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-c ... esistance/
People need to make their own dietary choices, and accept responsibility for the ultimate consequences.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:28 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Grigoris wrote: But to say that "fat clogs our insulin receptors" is just plain wrong.
Prediabetes and type 2 diabetes are caused by a drop in insulin sensitivity blamed on “intramyocellular lipid,” the buildup of fat inside our muscle cells.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-c ... esistance/
People need to make their own dietary choices, and accept responsibility for the ultimate consequences.
Still wrong. This does not show that fat blocks insulin receptors. Fat storage within muscle cells is just another way our body stores energy.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by seeker242 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:40 pm

Fat doesn't bind to insulin receptors. That's impossible. Fat interferes with the "signal cascade" that is supposed to take place after the insulin binds with the receptors.

"we believe that insulin binds to the receptor normally, but the signal is not sent into the cell, the cells do not take up glucose and the resulting high blood glucose levels cause organ damage over time."

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:52 am

One thing I know for sure is that the Buddha was not a vegan. In the Pali scriptures, the Buddha eats rice mixed with milk, along with rice cakes and honey. The Buddha did teach, however, that it's misconduct to kill animals for meat or to profit from the killing of animals for meat.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:06 pm

The private health insurance industry's profit model is based on patients getting sick as least often as possible, so that the insurer can avoid having to make payouts. What form of diet does Kaiser Permanente, America's largest health insurer, recommend for long-term health?
Kaiser Permanente encourages a plant-based diet, especially for those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease or obesity. It’s estimated that eating less meat and adding whole foods could reduce health care costs associated with the treatment of chronic disease.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 100031230/
THE PLANT-BASED DIET:
a healthier way to eat
Presented by Kaiser Permanente
https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/wp-c ... ooklet.pdf

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:27 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:The private health insurance industry's profit model is based on patients getting sick as least often as possible, so that the insurer can avoid having to make payouts. What form of diet does Kaiser Permanente, America's largest health insurer, recommend for long-term health?
Kaiser Permanente encourages a plant-based diet, especially for those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease or obesity. It’s estimated that eating less meat and adding whole foods could reduce health care costs associated with the treatment of chronic disease.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 100031230/
THE PLANT-BASED DIET:
a healthier way to eat
Presented by Kaiser Permanente
https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/wp-c ... ooklet.pdf
All good - "eating less meat and adding whole foods could reduce health care costs associated with the treatment of chronic disease," for sure - but remember that the baseline for this is the average American diet, which is appallingly bad. :pig:
You could go a very long way from there towards a 'plant-based diet' - or a 'Mediterranean diet' - without any danger of overshooting and ending up as a vegan. :tongue:

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:34 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote: You could go a very long way from there towards a 'plant-based diet' - or a 'Mediterranean diet' - without any danger of overshooting and ending up as a vegan. :tongue:

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I agree, but as I've shown elsewhere on this thread, there are health risks associated with consumption of olive oil. Also, fish is loaded with toxins, which is a staple of the Mediterranean diet. Even the fish one gets from a farm might be riddled with toxins:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... cb-dioxin/

I am the poster boy for the fact that, if a person really wants to switch to a plant-based diet, they can. I used to eat huge quantities of meet and cheese everyday. After a few days of eating nothing but plant-based foods, my tastebuds adapted, and my tastes changed.

Most of my health problems, such as sleep apnea, pre-diabetes, high blood pressure, etc., are diet-related. I have, for the first time in my life, put health and longevity above however good food might taste. I am actually really loving all the non-fat vegetarian food I am eating.

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by justsit » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:20 pm

A bit off topic here, but it's important to add that diet is not the only method to help control blood sugar and weight loss. Exercise is equally important; both are needed to obtain optimum results. Walking is the easiest and least expensive way to begin - no special equipment needed (except shoes with decent support).

:focus:

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:58 pm

justsit wrote:A bit off topic here, but it's important to add that diet is not the only method to help control blood sugar and weight loss. Exercise is equally important; both are needed to obtain optimum results. Walking is the easiest and least expensive way to begin - no special equipment needed (except shoes with decent support).

:focus:
Indeed!!!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:33 pm

justsit wrote:A bit off topic here, but it's important to add that diet is not the only method to help control blood sugar and weight loss. Exercise is equally important; both are needed to obtain optimum results. Walking is the easiest and least expensive way to begin - no special equipment needed (except shoes with decent support).

:focus:
And we have to do a fair bit to compensate for our sedentary lifestyles:
"Older adults in our study had lower blood pressure and lower total cholesterol levels than the people [same age group, 60-70] in 1991," she said.

Results showed people in the age group were engaging in more physical activity than in 1991.

Despite that their actual level of fitness had decreased.

"Australians are now perhaps more sedentary than ever, and they're also spending increasing amounts of time sitting during the day, so inactivity such as watching television, sitting at a desk or using a computer," Dr Lewis said.

"That could perhaps go some way to explaining why people in our study were actually participating in more physical activity but had lower fitness."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-22/s ... ls/8732258

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