Veganism is an Eating Disorder

A place to discuss health and fitness, including healthy diets, etc.
Strive
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:24 pm

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Strive » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:29 pm

KathyLauren wrote:Consider this: Imagine a cotton farmer who still keeps slaves to work his farm. He takes good care of them. They live in nice, clean, well-built houses that he provides. They have good, nutritious, tasty food, and he provides them with good clothing. He needs them to be healthy for work, so he ensures that they have the best medical care and adequate time off.

So what is wrong with the picture? The slaves aren't harmed, are they?

Why is it unacceptable for humans and yet okay for animals? Christians would say it's because humans have a soul and animals don't. (They used the same argument in slavery days about folks of African origin.) But Buddhists don't believe that, do we? So what is the Buddhist rationalization?

Vegans are those who cannot rationalize away the slavery of animals. It doesn't help to say that they are treated humanely. That doesn't address the fundamental issue.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
:thumbsup:

DharmaN00b
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:12 pm

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DharmaN00b » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:57 pm

seeker242 wrote: standard practice in the egg industry, and it's barbaric. The male offspring of dairy cows are often sent off the the veal factory, where they are subjected to other barbaric practices, and of course killed after that.
Shock and Awe worked for me, although I question the expediency of this approach. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, but what about when we're not in Rome? Have you witnessed a more satirical style? The spoof documentary CARNAGE, written and directed by Simon Amstell, is the best example I can come up with right now.

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1228
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by seeker242 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:49 am

The Artis Magistra wrote:
Why should we cause distress and death to plants or even single cells which are also living?
Because the alternative is committing suicide by eating nothing and that's unreasonable. :smile:
Or is Buddhism also about acknowledging reality and the nature of things as they are?
It is! Which is why when you really look into the reality of it in depth, you find that with regards to plants, a plant only diet is much less intensive on plant harvesting than an animal based diet is. That's because plant food is on the lowest "ecological trophic level". The higher you go on the food chain the more resources are consumed overall. For example, a cow typically eats 25-30 lbs of hay per day. That's a lot of plants being killed. Much less plants are killed by eating the plants directly.

:meditate:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

User avatar
KathyLauren
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: East Coast of Canada
Contact:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by KathyLauren » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:49 pm

]
Dharma Flower wrote:Given that I used to eat extreme amounts of meat, it's a miracle that I am now a vegetarian, let alone a vegan. My only sources of animal protein are nonfat, cholesterol-free dairy and egg whites, and my arteries are already thanking me.
I had my cholesterol checked recently as part of a routine checkup. My doctor said she had never see anyone get levels as low as mine in anyone my age without the use of statin drugs.
Dharma Flower wrote:Does that mean no more pet cats and dogs?
Yeah, tough call. My rationalization, and I admit that that is what it is, is that the pets in our house are all rescued. They would be dead or living in misery if we didn't give them a home. Compassion trumps logic.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3716
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Adamantine » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:30 pm

KathyLauren wrote:]
Dharma Flower wrote:Given that I used to eat extreme amounts of meat, it's a miracle that I am now a vegetarian, let alone a vegan. My only sources of animal protein are nonfat, cholesterol-free dairy and egg whites, and my arteries are already thanking me.
I had my cholesterol checked recently as part of a routine checkup. My doctor said she had never see anyone get levels as low as mine in anyone my age without the use of statin drugs.
Dharma Flower wrote:Does that mean no more pet cats and dogs?
Yeah, tough call. My rationalization, and I admit that that is what it is, is that the pets in our house are all rescued. They would be dead or living in misery if we didn't give them a home. Compassion trumps logic.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Kathy, are your rescue pets fed vegan diets?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

DharmaN00b
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:12 pm

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DharmaN00b » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:44 pm

KathyLauren wrote: I had my cholesterol checked recently as part of a routine checkup. My doctor said she had never see anyone get levels as low as mine in anyone my age without the use of statin drugs.
Dear KathyLauren,

do you have any thoughts about the use of oil in cooking and whether to eat a lot of raw foods in your diet? I am interested in you experiences as a veteran in this regard.

User avatar
KathyLauren
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: East Coast of Canada
Contact:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by KathyLauren » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:45 pm

Adamantine wrote: Kathy, are your rescue pets fed vegan diets?
No, they are not. I asked them if they would be willing to do so, but they declined. I am not going to force my beliefs on them.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

User avatar
KathyLauren
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: East Coast of Canada
Contact:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by KathyLauren » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:50 pm

DharmaN00b wrote:
KathyLauren wrote: I had my cholesterol checked recently as part of a routine checkup. My doctor said she had never see anyone get levels as low as mine in anyone my age without the use of statin drugs.
Dear KathyLauren,

do you have any thoughts about the use of oil in cooking and whether to eat a lot of raw foods in your diet? I am interested in you experiences as a veteran in this regard.
No, no thoughts on the subject at all. Well, almost none.

I don't think excess oil is healthy. We consume some. My wife is an expert baker, and you can't really bake without using oil or fat in some form. We use margarine. We try not to use too much.

Same with raw food. I love crunching on a raw carrot or fresh lettuce. But cooking improves the digestion and absorption of nutrients. That's why we do it.

I'm not some kind of health nut. I love the fact that I can stay healthy be eating the way I do. But that's not why I do it.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

amanitamusc
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:54 pm

KathyLauren wrote:Consider this: Imagine a cotton farmer who still keeps slaves to work his farm. He takes good care of them. They live in nice, clean, well-built houses that he provides. They have good, nutritious, tasty food, and he provides them with good clothing. He needs them to be healthy for work, so he ensures that they have the best medical care and adequate time off.

So what is wrong with the picture? The slaves aren't harmed, are they?

Why is it unacceptable for humans and yet okay for animals? Christians would say it's because humans have a soul and animals don't. (They used the same argument in slavery days about folks of African origin.) But Buddhists don't believe that, do we? So what is the Buddhist rationalization?

Vegans are those who cannot rationalize away the slavery of animals. It doesn't help to say that they are treated humanely. That doesn't address the fundamental issue.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
T.J Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Miller

This fellow talks about "pets being our slaves" as part of his comedy routine.
I tried not to but I admit I did laugh.

I give my dog much love and create a connection with the Buddha Dharma for him.
I also appreciate him for cleaning up the crumbs I spill during a meal.
He also gladly cleans my face of after meals.
I have never forced him to do these tasks that could be achieved with a dust pan,broom and wash cloth.
I love my pet. He eats a grain free diet.
Would I treat a human partner different from my pet ?
I might sweep the floor unless they really insisted on lapping up the crumbs.

Dharma Flower
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Dharma Flower » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:53 pm

There was a widely watched vegan Youtuber who recently quit veganism and now instead makes videos of himself binge eating on pizza and burgers and other junk food. He's been gaining substantial weight because of it. I want to avoid a similar fate. I am going vegetarian instead of vegan, because I know I am more likely to follow such a diet.

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3716
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Adamantine » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:30 pm

KathyLauren wrote:
Adamantine wrote: Kathy, are your rescue pets fed vegan diets?
No, they are not. I asked them if they would be willing to do so, but they declined. I am not going to force my beliefs on them.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Hehe.. yeah I only asked because that seems to be (not saying in your case) a blindspot in the general vegan approach: absolutely no animal based food or clothing or furniture or medicine, etc. And often times there can be an argumentative intensity in trying to shame people who eat meat or dairy (as can be witnessed on the hundreds of pages of vegetarian debate thread here) even if they explain that they need it for their health..as all constitutions are unique. Yet so many vegans have carnivores for pets who they are totally ok feeding factory-farmed animals to. . . Purportedly because they need it for their health..

I do have a (former) vegan friend who got an iguana as a pet since they are vegan by nature (or can be)... but it turns out they're really not so cuddly. :smile:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

emaho
Posts: 792
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by emaho » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:46 pm

Aren't Koalas vegan? They look very cuddly :smile:
"Do yourself a favor and get out of Samsara!" Dudjom Rinpoche, Counsels From My Heart

User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 1688
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:49 pm

emaho wrote:Aren't Koalas vegan? They look very cuddly :smile:
Image

emaho
Posts: 792
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by emaho » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:00 pm

:lol:
"Do yourself a favor and get out of Samsara!" Dudjom Rinpoche, Counsels From My Heart

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DNS » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:35 pm

Historian Yuval Harari makes some good points here:

phpBB [video]


From the 17:00 mark discussing the dairy industry.

User avatar
KathyLauren
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: East Coast of Canada
Contact:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by KathyLauren » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:43 am

Adamantine wrote: Hehe.. yeah I only asked because that seems to be (not saying in your case) a blindspot in the general vegan approach: absolutely no animal based food or clothing or furniture or medicine, etc. And often times there can be an argumentative intensity in trying to shame people who eat meat or dairy (as can be witnessed on the hundreds of pages of vegetarian debate thread here) even if they explain that they need it for their health..as all constitutions are unique.
Yes there are, unfortunately, many "veganazis", who give the rest of us a bad name. While I hope I do not come across as one of them, and I would never shame someone who claimed they need meat or dairy for health reasons (it might actually be true), I have limited sympathy for that argument. Such dietary restrictions are less common than is often claimed or assumed. There are in fact no essential nutrients in meat or dairy that are not also available in plant-based foods, other than vitamin B-12, which is of bacterial origin and is present in meat but not in washed plants.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 8781
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DGA » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:38 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I'll go one further and say most people who obsess long term over diet details (rather than just planning, etc.) are often in one way or another, on the road to an eating disorder. Goes for Paleo as much as for Vegans. Tell ya what, if you find Vegans uniquely annoying go spend some time with a Crossfitter on a Paleo diet..you will see there is nothing unique about Veganism in this regard, other than the (sometimes spurious) moral claims of course.

The fact that we are living around so many choices, with access to a mind boggling number of foods, and this obsession with diet...is not a coincidence.

The ongoing "debate" about just what is a healthy and/or ethical diet is an interesting one, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that usually when people debate this, it is not health they are concerned about, not really. Maybe not ethics either, since they tend not to apply the same standards with pretty much anything else they buy, only food. It's something deeper having to do with neuroses and fear about moral culpability, unconscious belief that certain substances are "tainted" etc.
I have participated in some intensive, traditional practice periods ("retreat" isn't really the right word for this kind of training). One of the things I learned from practicing for long hours among others who, all of us together, had no control over what we ate, when we ate it, how we ate it, or whether we had time to enjoy it, is that a big, big, big part of our egos is wrapped up in our food preferences. I saw this in myself, and I could see it clearly in others too. For some it became an obsession.

I'm interested in these conversations about food and food politics vis a vis Dharma practice for this reason. Food preferences are largely an exercise in self-grasping (constructing myself as a "good person," or as a "person with good taste," or as a "person with a regionally-appropriate sensibility," or just acting out habit and nostalgia, repeating the same old round again because that is familiar and parting with the familiar is painful). This exercise in self grasping, however, has the unique ability to coincide with a certain sensibility that coincides with some sentiments in some Dharma traditions, as we see in this thread.

Samsaric activity can present itself as virtuous activity, and that seems highly pernicious to me. I am not accusing anyone in this thread of this behavior, since I don't know any of you well enough to know and besides I'm an idiot and not a siddha, but I would like to underscore it Just In Case it Might Apply to You. It might, you know.

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 8781
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DGA » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:41 am

KathyLauren wrote:To answer the title question, no of course being vegan is not an eating disorder!
I respectfully disagree on this point.

I do agree with the concern you have expressed for the welfare of animals, who are sentient beings just like us.

For clarification: I am not anti-vegan any more than I am opposed to the second law of thermodynamics. It's samsara; there's no use in opposing it, but it can be worthwhile to probe it so as to understand what makes it tick.

User avatar
justsit
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by justsit » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:55 am

DGA wrote: Food preferences are largely an exercise in self-grasping (constructing myself as a "good person," or as a "person with good taste," or as a "person with a regionally-appropriate sensibility," or just acting out habit and nostalgia, repeating the same old round again because that is familiar and parting with the familiar is painful). This exercise in self grasping, however, has the unique ability to coincide with a certain sensibility that coincides with some sentiments in some Dharma traditions, as we see in this thread.
Really? While I'm sure that might be the case with some people, it is by no means the majority. Almost every vegan and vegetarian I know makes food choices based on health considerations. Many were overweight and developing complications and wanted to make healthier choices or had other diet related problems like diabetes. Personally, my first concern in becoming vegetarian was health; second, ethics, in terms of causing suffering to sentient beings; third was concern for the environment, since meat industry consumes large amounts of resources, among other things. Being trendy or any of the labels you mentioned above never entered into my decision. Not sure where you get the grasping thing.

I've been an RN for almost 30 years and have seen first hand the effects of poor dietary choices on the lives of countless patients. I decided early on that I would do what I could to stay healthy. I also quit drinking and drugging and smoking around the same time; if that makes me "grasping," so be it. Frankly, I don't give a flying you-know-what what others think of what I eat or any other aspect of my life. None of their business.

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1228
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:20 am

DGA wrote:
For clarification: I am not anti-vegan any more than I am opposed to the second law of thermodynamics.
FWIW, that isn't how it comes across. You think Thich Nhat Hanh has an eating disorder. I find that highly unlikely. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 9 guests