Veganism is an Eating Disorder

[emaho]

I doubt someone who eats french fries and coca cola for dinner is suffering from orthorexia nervosa! Coca cola isn't healthy at all and neither is french fries, but they're both vegan! Most health conscious people also don't go eat an entire pint of non-dairy ice cream, after they just finished their dinner of french fries and coca cola.

You forgot to mention the vegan chocolate avocado mousse and the homemade vegan "Nutella"

[Dharma Flower]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present: orthorexia nervosa

For the vast majority of vegans and vegetarians, their dietary choice is a matter of personal health and the ethical treatment of animals, and I've provided plenty of evidence for both. I refuse to participate in a discussion where the premise is that veganism, in and of itself, is an eating disorder, especially since the Buddha himself taught that it's misconduct to kill animals for meat. I will not judge you for making your own dietary choices.

[Dharma Flower]

Thoughts?

I have never attempted here to shame others into vegetarianism, whether for health, ethical, or environmental reasons. Comparing veganism to being an eating disorder sounds like you are trying to shame vegans for trying to live a healthier lifestyle.

I am not going to shame a Buddhist, in any way, shape or form, for choosing to eat meat, and I'm sorry if I've given that impression.

I will just point out, for the sake of logical consistency, that if it's misconduct to kill animals for meat, then you are enabling this misconduct by purchasing it.

Monastics who rely on alms for food don't have the luxury to decide what to eat and not eat, but we do if we go out and buy our own food.

People will need to make their own dietary choices, and it's not my right to judge others as somehow inferior because of it.

[Dharma Flower]

Thoughts?

As someone who is pre-diabetic, I am amazed to learn the health benefits of cutting animal fat from my diet. This is from the American Diabetes Association:

Of note, there is little evidence that total carbohydrate intake is associated with the development of type 2 diabetes (30,70,73,74). Rather, a stronger association has been observed between total fat and saturated fat intake and type 2 diabetes (75,76), although not all findings are in agreement (30).
http://care.diabetesjournals.org:8080/content/27/9/2266

Sadly, the average general family doctor is not very educated when it comes to nutrition. They know more about treating disease through pills than preventing it through diet:
http://health.usnews.com/wellness/food/ ... -nutrition

[Dharma Flower]

While it’s often claimed that eating tainted pork led to the Buddha’s death, this may have been a mistranslation:

At his final days in the parinibbana sutta, the food that led to his death was at one time translated as pork. The terms have been translated as “pig’s truffles” which was originally mistranslated as pork. Modern scholars including, Arthur Waley, K. E. Neumann, and Mrs. Rhys Davids have corrected this to “the food of pigs” which are mushrooms. Today, the majority of Buddhist scholars agree that the Buddha ate mushrooms, which may have been poisonous and led to his death at the age of 80…

A scientific sample is one that is done without any bias toward selecting the things to be studied or evaluated. The passages mentioning what the Buddha ate appear to fall into that category as they are spread out through the Pali Canon and refer to other teachings, not about diet and thus, appear to be random mentions of his diet. As such we can use the above as a representative sample. If we count all of the above plus the last meal, the meal Sujata gave to the Buddha and the mention of meat above, we come to: 35 vegetarian meals and 1 meat meal. This results in a diet by the Buddha that is 97% vegetarian. This is the equivalent of eating vegetarian all year except for 10 days per year which is less than one meat meal per month. Such a person even in modern times would most likely be defined as a vegetarian who makes some rare exceptions as may be necessary for social reasons. Of the 35 vegetarian meals 74 percent (26) were vegan (no meat and also no animal products). Even if we include the possibility of there being a second meat meal in the passage about General Siha (see above), then it still calculates out to 95% vegetarian (35 out of 37) diet of the Buddha.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Diet_of_Buddha

[jkarlins]

Sometimes I try to buy unusual things when I go grocery shopping. You know, to mix it up, get out of a rut.

I got some Kimchi flavored instant ramen-type noodles. I was so resistant to trying them that they sat in the pantry for maybe two or three months. Finally I tried them. Delicious!

I also got some Korean sweet filled pancakes, in a box. Ooooo not as much of a win

[Dharma Flower]

Other than B12, humans do not get any nutrient from animal products that doesn't come from fruits and vegetables. We can get B12 from cows because the bacteria in a cow's stomach produces it. Our ancestors, however, got B12 from the algae in drinking from fresh water sources.

Those on a diet of whole plant foods who take a B12 supplement will not become nutrient deficient.

Yes, you never know who hasn't had the benefit of all this bonus information. I would like to add omega 3's to the list. As for myself, a spoon of ground flax seed hopefully gets the job done. For B12, it's plant based milks, spreads and mucky vegetables if the tales carry any clout.

For B12 in your diet without meat, milk is also a good source:

The daily consumption of milk products can therefore contribute to the recommended intake of vitamin B12. In fact, milk is an excellent source of this vitamin, as a single 250 mL serving provides 1 µg of vitamin B12, or a little less than half of the Recommended Dietary Allowance.6,7 It has been estimated that the contribution of milk products to total vitamin B12 intake is about 30%…

Furthermore, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada recognizes that vitamin B12 is better absorbed from cow’s milk than when taken in vitamin supplements. The organization also states that one glass of milk can provide 50% of an adult’s daily vitamin B12 requirement.20 In a Quebec study conducted on pigs, research scientists from the organization showed that the absorption of vitamin B12 naturally present in cow’s milk was twice higher than that of synthetic vitamin B12. In this study, pigs were used as a model since their digestive system shares many similarities with that of humans in terms of anatomy, physiology, absorption and metabolism.21
https://www.dairynutrition.ca/nutrients ... itamin-b12

I didn't learn until yesterday that B12 is in cow's milk, since it's not listed on the nutrition facts label.

[Dharma Flower]

Thoughts?

While I don't judge others for eating meat, I would like to be as honest as possible about what the Buddha taught. I prepare and serve meat to my wife and children, because that's what they eat. I don't judge them for it.

I've never claimed that the Buddha required vegetarianism. I'm sorry if I gave a wrong impression.

What I did say is the Buddha taught that it's misconduct to kill animals for meat or to profit from the killing of animals for meat, which is why his monk disciples could only eat meat with the knowledge that it wasn't slaughtered on their behalf.

When we make the decision to buy meat, we are paying for the continued slaughter of more animals. That's a personal decision that we have to make, one way or another.

[Dharma Flower]

Sometimes I try to buy unusual things when I go grocery shopping. You know, to mix it up, get out of a rut.

I got some Kimchi flavored instant ramen-type noodles. I was so resistant to trying them that they sat in the pantry for maybe two or three months. Finally I tried them. Delicious!

I also got some Korean sweet filled pancakes, in a box. Ooooo not as much of a win

That might be a good idea. I was craving noodles today. Usually, I just eat simple things like potatoes, salad, broccoli, bean burritos, etc.

[TharpaChodron]

I remember from my Sanskrit lessons a long time ago (btw, I really don't know Sanskrit in case anyone is curious) that there is an old Sanskrit saying which translates into English as "What Me Eat in this life Eats Me in the next life." I think it's an encouragement to be vegetarian.

What I thought was interesting was that the way the English word for 'meat' worked exactly the same way as the Sanskrit word in these phrases. Does anyone know the Sanskrit term for meat? I have the Monier Williams dictionary, but I can't find it.

[DNS]

What I thought was interesting was that the way the English word for 'meat' worked exactly the same way as the Sanskrit word in these phrases. Does anyone know the Sanskrit term for meat? I have the Monier Williams dictionary, but I can't find it.

In Pali it is mamsa and I believe it is the same or similar in Sanskrit.

[TharpaChodron]

What I thought was interesting was that the way the English word for 'meat' worked exactly the same way as the Sanskrit word in these phrases. Does anyone know the Sanskrit term for meat? I have the Monier Williams dictionary, but I can't find it.

In Pali it is mamsa and I believe it is the same or similar in Sanskrit.

That sounds familiar, thank you. I'll have to look it up.

[Grigoris]

I remember from my Sanskrit lessons a long time ago (btw, I really don't know Sanskrit in case anyone is curious) that there is an old Sanskrit saying which translates into English as "What Me Eat in this life Eats Me in the next life." I think it's an encouragement to be vegetarian.

What I thought was interesting was that the way the English word for 'meat' worked exactly the same way as the Sanskrit word in these phrases. Does anyone know the Sanskrit term for meat? I have the Monier Williams dictionary, but I can't find it.

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.d ... caller.php

MEAT, s. (Flesh) māṁsaṁ, khādyamāṁsaṁ, māṁsāhāraḥ, āmiṣaṁ, āmiṣāhāraḥ;
‘butcher's meat,’ saunaṁ, śaunaṁ, saunikaṁ, śaunikaṁ.--(Food) annaṁ,
bhojanaṁ, āhāraḥ, khādyaṁ, bhakṣyadravyaṁ, khādyadravyaṁ; ‘meat and drink,’
[Page491-a+ 51]
annodakaṁ, annajalaṁ, annapānaṁ; ‘seller of meat,’ māṁsikaḥ, saunikaḥ,
śaunikaḥ, kauṭikaḥ, vaitaṁsikaḥ.

[Strive]

we should all try to be vegetarian at least. it goes well with buddhism

[TharpaChodron]

I remember from my Sanskrit lessons a long time ago (btw, I really don't know Sanskrit in case anyone is curious) that there is an old Sanskrit saying which translates into English as "What Me Eat in this life Eats Me in the next life." I think it's an encouragement to be vegetarian.

What I thought was interesting was that the way the English word for 'meat' worked exactly the same way as the Sanskrit word in these phrases. Does anyone know the Sanskrit term for meat? I have the Monier Williams dictionary, but I can't find it.

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.d ... caller.php

MEAT, s. (Flesh) māṁsaṁ, khādyamāṁsaṁ, māṁsāhāraḥ, āmiṣaṁ, āmiṣāhāraḥ;
‘butcher's meat,’ saunaṁ, śaunaṁ, saunikaṁ, śaunikaṁ.--(Food) annaṁ,
bhojanaṁ, āhāraḥ, khādyaṁ, bhakṣyadravyaṁ, khādyadravyaṁ; ‘meat and drink,’
[Page491-a+ 51]
annodakaṁ, annajalaṁ, annapānaṁ; ‘seller of meat,’ māṁsikaḥ, saunikaḥ,
śaunikaḥ, kauṭikaḥ, vaitaṁsikaḥ.

So, I guess I don't need that 50 pound dictionary anymore.

[Grigoris]

So, I guess I don't need that 50 pound dictionary anymore.

I have half a book shelf of "useless" 50 pound dictionaries, so... Join the club!

[odysseus]

There is no requirement in Buddhism to be vegetarian. But at a later point, the Buddha will speak and suggest you should be vegetarian. Depends on the individual.

[seeker242]

There is no requirement in Buddhism to be vegetarian. But at a later point, the Buddha will speak and suggest you should be vegetarian. Depends on the individual.

It does, although in some traditions, vegetarianism is a requirement for monks. As far a laypersons go, one could say there are no requirements for anything at all, since the whole entire practice is voluntary for laypeople.

[lostitude]

Our ancestors, however, got B12 from the algae in drinking from fresh water sources.

Interesting, never heard that theory before, and I really wonder how they could possibly tell. Any actual evidence?
I think it's a lot more obvious that they simply got their B12 from animal products, because they were not vegetarian.