Great Vegan Debate

A place to discuss health and fitness, including healthy diets, etc.
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justsit
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by justsit » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:56 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:37 am
..It is said for optimum benefit, to eat mostly organic raw eggs, raw milk (these two mixed together smoothens the taste-texture of the raw egg), grass fed butter, and raw grass fed meat (eat raw liver at least a couple times a week as well for Vitamin A). You can also add avocado and olive oil; and some carbs too, but not very much on the carbs.

This goes against everything taught to us by the so-called mainstream; but if the ‘mainstream’ knew what was best for us, then there would be more happy people than unhappy people, which is obviously not the case...

People all around the world have been eating raw animal products since who knows when, up until modern times with minimal chance of food poisoning. If you are susceptible to the fear-mongering of food poisoning, then by all means don’t risk eating raw animal products. Partially cooked meat is more likely to cause food poisoning than fully cooked or fully raw meat...

This^ is not meant to be professional advice.
Is this what you eat? "It is said for optimum benefit..." - was said by whom, please?

Your logic is faulty. "Mainstream" teachings work just fine - if followed; it is up to the individual to put it into practice. The fact that people rarely do what is good for them is not the fault of the teaching, but of the pupils.

The human digestive system has evolved in modern times and is no longer able to process certain chemicals nor tolerate certain bacteria. Eating raw meat and eggs now is almost guaranteed to cause illness.

Good that you added the caveat. I would not recommend these diet instructions for anyone (RN here).

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:29 pm

justsit wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:56 pm
Your logic is faulty. "Mainstream" teachings work just fine - if followed; it is up to the individual to put it into practice. The fact that people rarely do what is good for them is not the fault of the teaching, but of the pupils.
:good:

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by seeker242 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:57 pm

catmoon wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:06 am
Question for the vegans in the crowd, would a vegan refuse to eat insect-derived protein on the grounds of vegan principles? Would a vegan consider an insect to be an animal?
Absolutely refuse, for the same reasons. Insects are sentient animals. It's the reason why honey is not vegan. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Simon E. » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:40 pm

Even in the strictly biological sense insects are part of the animal kingdom. There is a tendency to think that the word 'animal' refers to mammals and possibly birds.. :smile:
Even jellyfish and fleas are animals.
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DharmaN00b
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DharmaN00b » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:39 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:40 pm
Even in the strictly biological sense insects are part of the animal kingdom. There is a tendency to think that the word 'animal' refers to mammals and possibly birds.. :smile:
Even jellyfish and fleas are animals.
Yes but they are vestigial IE non functional in the sense that we don't eat them (rhizostomae excluded), Of course all animals are subject to PC identity policy only they don't get a say. um..
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Gyurme Kundrol
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Gyurme Kundrol » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:37 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:57 pm
catmoon wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:06 am
Question for the vegans in the crowd, would a vegan refuse to eat insect-derived protein on the grounds of vegan principles? Would a vegan consider an insect to be an animal?
Absolutely refuse, for the same reasons. Insects are sentient animals. It's the reason why honey is not vegan. :smile:
The only problem is that in order to have healthy crops, farmers have to massacre countless scores of insects on a regular basis. Even organic farms have all natural ways of performing these killings. Tilling the fields, etc... all kills insects.

The truth is that if you are incarnate, you eat other beings to survive. Even if you only eat plants, uncountable sentient beings die because you exist. You cant escape it, and its even one of the first things Buddha sees when he leaves his palace for the first time. The tilling of the fields and all the worms being killed from that.

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by seeker242 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:41 pm

Gyurme Kundrol wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:37 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:57 pm
catmoon wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:06 am
Question for the vegans in the crowd, would a vegan refuse to eat insect-derived protein on the grounds of vegan principles? Would a vegan consider an insect to be an animal?
Absolutely refuse, for the same reasons. Insects are sentient animals. It's the reason why honey is not vegan. :smile:
The only problem is that in order to have healthy crops, farmers have to massacre countless scores of insects on a regular basis. Even organic farms have all natural ways of performing these killings. Tilling the fields, etc... all kills insects.

The truth is that if you are incarnate, you eat other beings to survive. Even if you only eat plants, uncountable sentient beings die because you exist. You cant escape it, and its even one of the first things Buddha sees when he leaves his palace for the first time.
No really a problem because it's about causing the least amount of harm possible. Feeding crops to livestock, which is mostly how it's done, many more acres of field need to be tilled and cultivated and that means eating livestock kills many more small animals. It's no secret that ~80% of the world soy crop is for livestock feed. The truth is that some practices are more harmful than others therefore one should choose the least harmful option. That definitely is not animal agriculture. Animal agriculture is the most harmful option.
The tilling of the fields and all the worms being killed from that.
So tilling a field for crops for human consumption, let just say, will kill 100 worms. Meanwhile, growing feed for livestock, 1,000 worms will be killed. Which one is better?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Simon E. » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:41 pm

Whoa, Nelly.

I had no intention of entering this discussion because it invariably turns into a dialogue of the deaf..But..

According to stats published by The Soil Association which promotes organic agriculture, there are something like 700 earthworms per square metre in cultivated soil..and of course there are many dozens of square metres in the average field.
Even in dry arid sunbaked soil, there are 60 or 70 worms per square foot.
And earthworms are just one of the more numerous forms of invertebrate life.

So all forms of agriculture, animal or arable, cause a large number of deaths of sentient beings.

We live in a samsaric world.

The best we can do is try to ascertain for ourselves which lifestyle causes less suffering, and the answers may be more complex and nuanced than is obvious at first sight.
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Mirror » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:12 pm

I'm absolutely for veganism, but I'm not a blind believer (that means I would eat a meat or an animal product in some cases). I don't care if it is healthy or not.

I'm vegan because I know, that eating animal products harm animals (every idiot who know, how are milk and eggs produced know that). And if you like this planet, you should know that 50% of the world's pollution is caused by the fabrication of animal products.

Even you can watch some movies like Earthlings, Dominion 2018, Cowspiracy, etc. These movies will change your view about veganism.

I'm begging you, make a proper research on your own, before you start judge dispraise it.

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by seeker242 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:27 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:41 pm
Whoa, Nelly.

I had no intention of entering this discussion because it invariably turns into a dialogue of the deaf..But..

According to stats published by The Soil Association which promotes organic agriculture, there are something like 700 earthworms per square metre in cultivated soil..and of course there are many dozens of square metres in the average field.
Even in dry arid sunbaked soil, there are 60 or 70 worms per square foot.
And earthworms are just one of the more numerous forms of invertebrate life.

That was just a wild guess on the number of worms killed per field. :smile: The point was that animals eat plants too and they eat a lot more than people do. Therefore, much more land needs to be cultivated feeding animals compared to people. If one is critiquing land cultivation, and not including those animal crop fields in the equation, that is a much too simplistic account of the situation.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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catmoon
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by catmoon » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:06 am

Ok, so which does a Buddhist give priority to, the suffering of worms and bugs or the suffering of people? Which is more deserving of our attention and concern?
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Sādhaka
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:11 am

catmoon wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:06 am
Ok, so which does a Buddhist give priority to, the suffering of worms and bugs or the suffering of people? Which is more deserving of our attention and concern?

Ultimately, all sentient beings equally.

Relatively, no one knows the answer except for fully Awakened Buddhas.

Until then, it is up to the individual’s own discernment.
The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

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Sādhaka
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:34 am

The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

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Miroku
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Miroku » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:14 am

:D Veganism is an eating disorder but carnivore diet is the real stuff. Ofc... :tongue:
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
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catmoon
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by catmoon » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:41 am

Miroku wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:14 am
:D Veganism is an eating disorder but carnivore diet is the real stuff. Ofc... :tongue:
Nah I'm pretty sure that one IS an eating disorder. Some people (like me) get very sick very fast on such diets.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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Miroku
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Miroku » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:12 am

catmoon wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:41 am
Miroku wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:14 am
:D Veganism is an eating disorder but carnivore diet is the real stuff. Ofc... :tongue:
Nah I'm pretty sure that one IS an eating disorder. Some people (like me) get very sick very fast on such diets.
Sorry, was meant to be sarcastic. I am quite sure carnivore diet is bs at best.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

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ddorje
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by ddorje » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:46 am

Tulku Pema Wangyal is a vegan
'Maybe you collect a lot of important writings, major texts, personal instructions private notes, whatever. If you haven't practiced, books won't help you when you die. Look at the mind - that's my sincere advice' - Longchen Rabjam

Sādhaka
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Sādhaka » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:03 am

emaho wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:47 pm
Sādhaka wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:37 am
Anyway, if you can spend the rest of your life more or less in solitary retreat, and start eating fruitarian as to eventully graduate to living on breath & sunshine; then by all means do it. I doubt that this is impossible.
Please don't spread this living on light theory. People have already died trying to do this. It recently made the news that a young man has died in 2017 trying to live on light alone. His name was Finn Bogumil. I also know of a Buddhist who apparently was under the same delusion. She almost died when she was in India trying to do a three year retreat without a teacher. Luckily for her she got admitted to psychiatric care in the last minute. She was already half dead and had to spend some weeks in intensive care before she could be transferred to a hospital in Germany.

I’m not talking about people going out there and ‘just trying it’. I should have mentioned this.

Rather I’m referring to doing it with the guidance of a qualified Lama; with Chulen, the correct Pranayamas, etc.

Of course these things are not appropriate to discuss in detail on a public forum.

Samsara is a slaughterhouse.

Veganism by itself is not going to save the world.

Plants exhibit sentience. Many points of debate here; but also, plants contain oxalates and other compounds that are not handled well by humans.

Life feeding on life is how samsara rolls.

If one is a Dharma practitioner, then you might as well be as healthy as possible (e.g. eat organic grass fed meat (mindfully & with Mantras) do intermittent fasting, etc.), until the time arrives in which you can ‘graduate’ to not having to eat anything/participate in the samsaric slaughterhouse as an sentient being at all.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Miroku
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by Miroku » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:10 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:03 am
emaho wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:47 pm
Sādhaka wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:37 am
Anyway, if you can spend the rest of your life more or less in solitary retreat, and start eating fruitarian as to eventully graduate to living on breath & sunshine; then by all means do it. I doubt that this is impossible.
Please don't spread this living on light theory. People have already died trying to do this. It recently made the news that a young man has died in 2017 trying to live on light alone. His name was Finn Bogumil. I also know of a Buddhist who apparently was under the same delusion. She almost died when she was in India trying to do a three year retreat without a teacher. Luckily for her she got admitted to psychiatric care in the last minute. She was already half dead and had to spend some weeks in intensive care before she could be transferred to a hospital in Germany.

I’m not talking about people going out there and ‘just trying it’. I should have mentioned this.

Rather I’m referring to doing it with the guidance of a qualified Lama; with Chulen, the correct Pranayamas, etc.

Of course these things are not appropriate to discuss in detail on a public forum.

Samsara is a slaughterhouse.

Veganism is not going to save the world. Plants exhibit sentience. Life feeding on life is how samsara rolls.
But it could help make things more bearable. Be it the amount of grains being fed to livestock, the methane gases from cow farts, the manure or even the fact that meat might not be as healthy for humans as we think and diet full of vegetables, legumes and grains could, can and does save lives.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

DharmaN00b
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Re: Veganism is an Eating Disorder

Post by DharmaN00b » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:30 am

catmoon wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:06 am
Ok, so which does a Buddhist give priority to, the suffering of worms and bugs or the suffering of people? Which is more deserving of our attention and concern?
Priority to neither! This is a question of biosphere equilibrium :quoteunquote: , which when upset potentially results in a higher body count. We gas enough low lives :quoteunquote: and bees then the whole house implodes.

The bottom line is that veganism can make a significant difference and it's better to be a bit skinnier and have a few ailments than risk a potential apocalypse. On any scale this is not hyperbole, and just a question of perception, this is what offsets the cheapness of life.

The simple answer is that people are eating too much shit talking out of their arses and investing in a swamp. :broke:
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