Great Vegan Debate

A place to discuss health and fitness, including healthy diets, etc.
DharmaN00b
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Great Vegan Debate

Post by DharmaN00b » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:32 am

DharmaN00b wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:30 am
catmoon wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:06 am
Ok, so which does a Buddhist give priority to, the suffering of worms and bugs or the suffering of people? Which is more deserving of our attention and concern?
Priority to neither! This is a question of biosphere equilibrium which, when upset, potentially results in a higher body count. We gas enough low lives :quoteunquote: and bees then the whole house implodes.

The bottom line is that veganism can make a significant difference and it's better to be a bit skinnier and have a few ailments than risk a potential apocalypse. On any scale this is not hyperbole, and just a question of perception, this is what offsets the cheapness of life.

The simple answer is that people are eating too much shit talking out of their arses and investing in a swamp. :broke:
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Johnny Dangerous
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Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:47 am

Without institutional moves towards changing industrial agriculture, and making more institutions vegetarian (both great ideas IMO, btw), etc.....much of vegan and vegetarian "activism" just ends up mainly as first world posturing.

Completely true that in theory if we all ate vegan the environment would improve. Also true in theory that if we stopped supporting the US Government financially they could stop helping to decimate Yemen, as one example. Also true in theory that if we all stopped buying all the stuff we buy in life we could defund the military enough to make an enormous impact. The fact that not enough people do any of it to even register really begs the question of whether or not lifestyle advocacy is a valid way to approach any of this.

We throw away something like 33% of all the food produced, I don't remember what percentage of that is meat, it's less than other stuff if I recall, but still substantial. A small percentage of people making individual dietary choices under these circumstances isn't enough to do anything but have (usually first world) people in engage in endless, boring arguments over lifestyle choices, which is exactly what happens. Personally I'm sick of the argument, but I look forward to the day (if it ever comes) that there is some kind of paradigm shift towards something better, until then, I'll eat according to my needs, because in my particular karmic situation I don't think making dietary changes of this sort is a very good use of what meager Bodhicitta I manage to rouse;) YMMV.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

DharmaN00b
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Post by DharmaN00b » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:24 am

We can't make up history but it (can) does make us better seers in lieu of it :soapbox:
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Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:38 am

DharmaN00b wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:24 am
We can't make up history but it (can) does make us better seers in lieu of it :soapbox:
What?
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Post by DharmaN00b » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:50 am

One way of putting it is that we can look at history- it plays out- we can do nothing about it, we have no agency. We have a perspective of deep time historically.

So we look at how it used to be as see ourselves as we were then saying 'everyone's doing this, it's never going to change'. But we have the power of hindsight. We have a general idea of the movements and figures and minds and catalysts and plays that came together (historically). We, at least, have a basic idea of how incomprehensible certain changes must have been at the time. Of course, changes are miraculous in the blink of an eye not to mention the brain melt from literally millions of human minds/wants/trends.

now
This in mind... I would argue that history can make us apathetic (lazy argument: it's cyclical, shit happens etc) and our :quoteunquote: agency/investment goes into making apathetic predictions. Of course we don't know, but err {pessimistically} due to having nothing to do with past events, not just with others but with ourselves too.

We can instead use history pro-actively; so we're taking things we took no part in and say 'Hey, things are going to change for the better. I know it's optimistic, non factual and possibly BS, but amazing things happen historically. I just don't agree that looking at life how it looks means very much, but if I had just said 'where's the perspective' would that have made any more sense? In fact suggesting another person lacks perspective while lacking it .. you know, it's hypocrisy.

Of course I can also look at people lack of perspective historically 'en masse' but it's always been the case in spite of all odds who'd have thought about it?

Ok I've tried my best in the early hours so .. :zzz:
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Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:40 am

DharmaN00b wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:50 am
One way of putting it is that we can look at history- it plays out- we can do nothing about it, we have no agency. We have a perspective of deep time historically.

So we look at how it used to be as see ourselves as we were then saying 'everyone's doing this, it's never going to change'. But we have the power of hindsight. We have a general idea of the movements and figures and minds and catalysts and plays that came together (historically). We, at least, have a basic idea of how incomprehensible certain changes must have been at the time. Of course, changes are miraculous in the blink of an eye not to mention the brain melt from literally millions of human minds/wants/trends.

now
This in mind... I would argue that history can make us apathetic (lazy argument: it's cyclical, shit happens etc) and our :quoteunquote: agency/investment goes into making apathetic predictions. Of course we don't know, but err {pessimistically} due to having nothing to do with past events, not just with others but with ourselves too.

We can instead use history pro-actively; so we're taking things we took no part in and say 'Hey, things are going to change for the better. I know it's optimistic, non factual and possibly BS, but amazing things happen historically. I just don't agree that looking at life how it looks means very much, but if I had just said 'where's the perspective' would that have made any more sense? In fact suggesting another person lacks perspective while lacking it .. you know, it's hypocrisy.

Of course I can also look at people lack of perspective historically 'en masse' but it's always been the case in spite of all odds who'd have thought about it?

Ok I've tried my best in the early hours so .. :zzz:
Yes, paradigm shifts do happen. I jut don't think that most people who are vegan activists will actually be responsible in any meaningful way for the paradigm shift (which hopefully happens before we go extinct, completely ruin the planet etc.) that ends up getting rid of the excesses of industrial agriculture, and all that goes along with that. I hold out the possibility that I could be entirely mistaken of course.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Post by SunWuKong » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:38 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:04 am
Or veganism coincides with eating disorders

Or veganism converges with eating disorders

Or veganism opens onto eating disorders, like a gateway drug

The point is that the two are very difficult to tease apart, and in a practical sense, are difficult to distinguish from each other. It's possible to have an eating disorder such as anorexia without being a vegan, but is it possible to be a vegan without having an eating disorder?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402905/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/when-vegan ... g-disorder

Thoughts?
"veganism" isn't the answer, but! you can get all the proteins, calories, fiber, etc. you need from non-animal food with only 2 exceptions. Vitamin D will be low unless the risk of skin cancer is high. Take the pills. Essential Fatty Acids (EFA's) like Omega 3,6,9 in veggie form are rare and hard to come by and expensive. Still, it's possible if you research it carefully and don't go OCD on it.

the answer is a "plant-based diet of low-glycemic index food, high in protein, high in soluble fiber" (psyllium, oats, barley, black beans). By low glycemic index I mean no sugar, alcohol, white flour, white rice, white potato. Grains that are unrefined have more food value (rolled oats, cracked wheat, masa flour, brown rice, etc) Fruit should be consumed sparingly.

My sister just showed me the 12 different types of lentil (daal) they have in their kitchen. My kitchen has abut 30-40 sources of whole grains, beans, lentils, nuts, seeds. The spice rack is as large as a medium sized book shelf. The fridge has 3-4 alternative milks in it. The matcha infused almond milk is my favorite.

i've openly criticized chefs who think this kind of eating has to be boring. That's because they lack skill. At my local grocery store there are probably 100 different types of curry and Asian sauces. Most of them are easy to figure out how to cook at home and actually to make them even healthier.

I still cook meat, fish, eggs, cheese whenever i want to, but my own diet is 95% as described. It's not even a sacrifice I'm still at 240lbs. trying to get to 185lbs.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:11 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:47 am
Without institutional moves towards changing industrial agriculture, and making more institutions vegetarian (both great ideas IMO, btw), etc.....much of vegan and vegetarian "activism" just ends up mainly as first world posturing.

Completely true that in theory if we all ate vegan the environment would improve. Also true in theory that if we stopped supporting the US Government financially they could stop helping to decimate Yemen, as one example. Also true in theory that if we all stopped buying all the stuff we buy in life we could defund the military enough to make an enormous impact. The fact that not enough people do any of it to even register really begs the question of whether or not lifestyle advocacy is a valid way to approach any of this.

We throw away something like 33% of all the food produced, I don't remember what percentage of that is meat, it's less than other stuff if I recall, but still substantial. A small percentage of people making individual dietary choices under these circumstances isn't enough to do anything but have (usually first world) people in engage in endless, boring arguments over lifestyle choices, which is exactly what happens. Personally I'm sick of the argument, but I look forward to the day (if it ever comes) that there is some kind of paradigm shift towards something better, until then, I'll eat according to my needs, because in my particular karmic situation I don't think making dietary changes of this sort is a very good use of what meager Bodhicitta I manage to rouse;) YMMV.
:good:

It has also been said that encouraging lifestyle advocacy is a way of shifting attention away from the real causes of problems so that, for instance, plastics manufacturers get a free pass on what they do while everyone wanting change is preoccupied with picking up straws and carrying their own takeaway cups.

:namaste:
Kim

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Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:43 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:11 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:47 am
Without institutional moves towards changing industrial agriculture, and making more institutions vegetarian (both great ideas IMO, btw), etc.....much of vegan and vegetarian "activism" just ends up mainly as first world posturing.

Completely true that in theory if we all ate vegan the environment would improve. Also true in theory that if we stopped supporting the US Government financially they could stop helping to decimate Yemen, as one example. Also true in theory that if we all stopped buying all the stuff we buy in life we could defund the military enough to make an enormous impact. The fact that not enough people do any of it to even register really begs the question of whether or not lifestyle advocacy is a valid way to approach any of this.

We throw away something like 33% of all the food produced, I don't remember what percentage of that is meat, it's less than other stuff if I recall, but still substantial. A small percentage of people making individual dietary choices under these circumstances isn't enough to do anything but have (usually first world) people in engage in endless, boring arguments over lifestyle choices, which is exactly what happens. Personally I'm sick of the argument, but I look forward to the day (if it ever comes) that there is some kind of paradigm shift towards something better, until then, I'll eat according to my needs, because in my particular karmic situation I don't think making dietary changes of this sort is a very good use of what meager Bodhicitta I manage to rouse;) YMMV.
:good:

It has also been said that encouraging lifestyle advocacy is a way of shifting attention away from the real causes of problems so that, for instance, plastics manufacturers get a free pass on what they do while everyone wanting change is preoccupied with picking up straws and carrying their own takeaway cups.

:namaste:
Kim
I've always thought this is true to some degree. It works the same with some "green technology", where the supposed solution is all based on consumer behavior (naturally, rather than say, accountability of wealth hoarding corporations whose policies drive environmental destruction), even though it's not consumer behavior actually driving the system; and in fact the consumer behavior is pretty much engineered.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

DharmaN00b
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Post by DharmaN00b » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:57 am

Definition@ expedient means>> anything for a quiet life :twothumbsup:
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Post by seeker242 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:55 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:47 am
The fact that not enough people do any of it to even register really begs the question of whether or not lifestyle advocacy is a valid way to approach any of this.
The valid way to approach it is every way, which includes a way of lifestyle advocacy. One way is not mutually exclusive to other ways. All ways, simultaneously, is the most effective approach.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

DharmaN00b
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Post by DharmaN00b » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:01 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:55 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:47 am
The fact that not enough people do any of it to even register really begs the question of whether or not lifestyle advocacy is a valid way to approach any of this.
The valid way to approach it is every way, which includes a way of lifestyle advocacy. One way is not mutually exclusive to other ways. All ways, simultaneously, is the most effective approach.
I am hearing :quoteunquote: mothers necessity? Not far off the mark :heart:
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Post by chefboyRD » Thu May 23, 2019 9:04 pm

KathyLauren wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:32 pm
I have been a Buddhist for nearly 40 years, a vegetarian for 35 years and a vegan for 20 years. I have hung out on vegan, vegetarian and Buuddhist discussion forums since the very early days of the world-wide web, and have seen a lot (I mean a **LOT**) of dust-ups on this topic.

I can honestly say that no one is more fanatically anti-vegan than Buddhist anti-vegans. Kind of bizarre when you think about it. What could be more naturally Buddhist than compassion for animals?

To answer the title question, no of course being vegan is not an eating disorder!

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Well Said Sister! I have been vegetarian for several years, my wife and one daughter are vegan and I understand both sides of the debate. I have certificates in nutrition and culinary and have studied my whole adult life the topic and I must say that I find a vegetarian diet to be the optimum healthy diet, and a vegan lifestyle to be the most compassionate. I understand how it borders on obsession and discussions can be fiesty on the subject as there is so much conflicting information out there. I think we all need to find what is best for each of us but I am certain that the western diet is unsustainable for both people and planet and needs to change of we are to survive.

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Post by Nemo » Thu May 23, 2019 10:27 pm

chefboyRD wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 9:04 pm
KathyLauren wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:32 pm
I have been a Buddhist for nearly 40 years, a vegetarian for 35 years and a vegan for 20 years. I have hung out on vegan, vegetarian and Buuddhist discussion forums since the very early days of the world-wide web, and have seen a lot (I mean a **LOT**) of dust-ups on this topic.

I can honestly say that no one is more fanatically anti-vegan than Buddhist anti-vegans. Kind of bizarre when you think about it. What could be more naturally Buddhist than compassion for animals?

To answer the title question, no of course being vegan is not an eating disorder!

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Well Said Sister! I have been vegetarian for several years, my wife and one daughter are vegan and I understand both sides of the debate. I have certificates in nutrition and culinary and have studied my whole adult life the topic and I must say that I find a vegetarian diet to be the optimum healthy diet, and a vegan lifestyle to be the most compassionate. I understand how it borders on obsession and discussions can be fiesty on the subject as there is so much conflicting information out there. I think we all need to find what is best for each of us but I am certain that the western diet is unsustainable for both people and planet and needs to change of we are to survive.
it's not the healthiest diet for everyone but it is unequivocally the compassionate choice. The title of this topic is a bit dickish.

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Post by Miroku » Thu May 23, 2019 10:35 pm

Nemo wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:27 pm
The title of this topic is a bit dickish.
:good:
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
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Post by tatpurusa » Thu May 23, 2019 11:02 pm

Nemo wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:27 pm
it's not the healthiest diet for everyone but it is unequivocally the compassionate choice. The title of this topic is a bit dickish.
This is an absolute understatement.

In case of children, especially babies and toddlers, it has the unavoidable capacity to cripple and kill.
In case of normally developed adults (developed normally thanks to animal based foods during infancy)
it damages seriously "only" in the middle and long term.
It is definitely not an "eating disorder" but a "mental disorder" of indoctrination.

tp.

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Post by Nemo » Thu May 23, 2019 11:10 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 11:02 pm
Nemo wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:27 pm
it's not the healthiest diet for everyone but it is unequivocally the compassionate choice. The title of this topic is a bit dickish.
This is an absolute understatement.

In case of children, especially babies and toddlers, it has the unavoidable capacity to kill.
In case of normally developed adults (developed normally thanks to animal based foods during infancy)
it damages seriously "only" in the middle and long term.
It is definitely not an "eating disorder" but a "mental disorder" of indoctrination.

tp.
That is a bit over the top and I have the genes for carnitine deficiency and poor folate metabolism. I don't do well on a veggie diet and can even get mild cardiomyopathy but it is less than 1 in 65,000. Many people do great on an all veggie diet. The easiest way to test is to try it and see how you feel. If you don't feel amazing get some advanced genetic testing done. You can probably still do it with the right supplements.

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Post by tatpurusa » Thu May 23, 2019 11:17 pm

Nemo wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 11:10 pm

That is a bit over the top and I have the genes for carnitine deficiency and poor folate metabolism. I don't do well on a veggie diet and can even get mild cardiomyopathy but it is less than 1 in 65,000. Many people do great on an all veggie diet. The easiest way to test is to try it and see how you feel. If you don't feel amazing get some advanced genetic testing done. You can probably still do it with the right supplements.
OK, but you are a vegetarian, not a vegan, right?
These are by no means the same thing.
The topic here is veganism.

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Post by Nemo » Thu May 23, 2019 11:23 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 11:17 pm
Nemo wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 11:10 pm

That is a bit over the top and I have the genes for carnitine deficiency and poor folate metabolism. I don't do well on a veggie diet and can even get mild cardiomyopathy but it is less than 1 in 65,000. Many people do great on an all veggie diet. The easiest way to test is to try it and see how you feel. If you don't feel amazing get some advanced genetic testing done. You can probably still do it with the right supplements.
OK, but you are a vegetarian, not a vegan, right?
These are by no means the same thing.
The topic here is veganism.
No, I gave it up. Too much trouble with my arctic caveman genome. I could probably go veg 5 days a week without any adverse health effects but my compassion for animals is inadequate.


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