Great Vegan Debate

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Simon E.
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Simon E. » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:36 pm

I suspect that there is an Elephant in the room.
Basically it’s about whether ones sympathies lie with Chinese/ East Asian Schools or with the Indo-Tibetan traditions.

Of course that’s a huge generalisation..but still....
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:38 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:32 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:23 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:14 pm
So, some samsara is just being human, but other samsara is something we should work on.
Would you argue that eating meat is just as serious of an offence than killing humans? This explicitely contradicts traditional Buddhist teachings.
No. But if you can also stop stealing, sounds like a plan. Stop contributing to the suffering of beings being slaughtered for food? That's great, too. Ending samsara requires complete effort.
You can never end samsara by not eating meat or even by avoiding any negative karma. This is just not enough. Even on a personal level, achieving enlightenment this way needs hundreds or thousands of lives.
What is needed is transcending samsara taking with you all those beings that are karmically connected to you. In this case, even a bad karmic connection (like eating their corpses) is better suited to help them than absolutely no connection.
This is the reason why many aspiring and accomplished bodhisattvas eat meat.

tatpurusa
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:45 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:36 pm
I suspect that there is an Elephant in the room.
Basically it’s about whether ones sympathies lie with Chinese/ East Asian Schools or with the Indo-Tibetan traditions.

Of course that’s a huge generalisation..but still....
Or rather like a difference between the Sutric and Tantric/Dzogchen views..

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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:48 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:38 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:32 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:23 pm


Would you argue that eating meat is just as serious of an offence than killing humans? This explicitely contradicts traditional Buddhist teachings.
No. But if you can also stop stealing, sounds like a plan. Stop contributing to the suffering of beings being slaughtered for food? That's great, too. Ending samsara requires complete effort.
You can never end samsara by not eating meat or even by avoiding any negative karma. This is just not enough. Even on a personal level, achieving enlightenment this way needs hundreds or thousands of lives.
What is needed is transcending samsara taking with you all those beings that are karmically connected to you. In this case, even a bad karmic connection (like eating their corpses) is better suited to help them than absolutely no connection.
This is the reason why many aspiring and accomplished bodhisattvas eat meat.
You keep making these extreme arguments as though any point you make precludes also avoiding killing beings. I get it - meat is important to you.

OK.
:shrug:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:49 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:36 pm
I suspect that there is an Elephant in the room.
Basically it’s about whether ones sympathies lie with Chinese/ East Asian Schools or with the Indo-Tibetan traditions.

Of course that’s a huge generalisation..but still....
Whatever eases your conscience.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

tatpurusa
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:52 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:48 pm
You keep making these extreme arguments as though any point you make precludes also avoiding killing beings. I get it - meat is important to you.

OK.
:shrug:
No, they are not extreme arguments but fairly standard ones by Tantric/Dzogchen masters.
You do not understand my point. Not meat is important to me. Rather, avoiding cheating ourselves and others is what is important to me.
Following rules can pretty much cause one to create an illusion of being superior. And this becomes a serious hindrance in transcending illusion.
Last edited by tatpurusa on Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:57 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:52 pm
Following rules can pretty much cause one to create an illusion of being superior.
Are YOU seriously making that argument?

:rolling:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Simon E.
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Simon E. » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:58 pm

I can say with hand on heart that my conscience is entirely untroubled by lunch.
Sharing meat meals with a number of highly regarded teachers tends to shape you in that direction.
There is no escaping the fact.

ChNN ate meat. As did Dudjom Rinpoche. As did the 16th Karmapa. They were spiritual giants.

Who am I to question them?
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

tatpurusa
Posts: 580
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:57 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:52 pm
Following rules can pretty much cause one to create an illusion of being superior.
Are YOU seriously making that argument?

:rolling:
Yes, of course. Absolutely seriously. It can give you the comfortable feeling that you are more perfect than others, whereas the only thing that really matters is realization. Because of this, following rules can be an obstacle. You need more than that.

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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:04 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:02 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:57 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:52 pm
Following rules can pretty much cause one to create an illusion of being superior.
Are YOU seriously making that argument?

:rolling:
Yes, of course. Absolutely seriously. It can give you the comfortable feeling that you are more perfect than others, whereas the only thing that really matters is realization. Because of this, following rules can be an obstacle. You need more than that.
So you're telling me a rule I should follow which is don't follow rules.

Gotcha.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:06 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:58 pm

Who am I to question them?
Who are you to opine anything, really. Right?

Oh, go on. Sorry to get in the way.

You were saying?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

tatpurusa
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:12 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:04 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:02 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:57 pm


Are YOU seriously making that argument?

:rolling:
Yes, of course. Absolutely seriously. It can give you the comfortable feeling that you are more perfect than others, whereas the only thing that really matters is realization. Because of this, following rules can be an obstacle. You need more than that.
So you're telling me a rule I should follow which is don't follow rules.

Gotcha.
No. What I am telling is to follow rules but avoid illusion that can arise from following the rules.
Following rules helps avoiding negative karma and creates positive karma through the intention. But this is not enough alone. One has to be aware and recognize subtle tendencies that can become obstacles.
Avoiding negative karma and creating positive karma helps you to prepare a good base, but this all is still within the framework of karma and samsara.
At some point you have to transcend it, even if it be in another life. Preferebly in the current one, of course.
Last edited by tatpurusa on Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Simon E.
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Simon E. » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:15 pm

No you are quite correct. I have a range of firmly held views on a number of political, social and artistic matters.
But I have no “opinions” on the Vajrayana. Like all Vajrayana students I merely put my feet into the footprints of the masters.


You are either on or off the Vajrayana bus. ( To mix metaphors).
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Queequeg
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:26 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:15 pm
No you are quite correct. I have a range of firmly held views on a number of political, social and artistic matters.
But I have no “opinions” on the Vajrayana. Like all Vajrayana students I merely put my feet into the footprints of the masters.


You are either on or off the Vajrayana bus. ( To mix metaphors).
By opinionating on DW about those foot prints.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Posts: 9647
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:29 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:12 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:04 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:02 pm

Yes, of course. Absolutely seriously. It can give you the comfortable feeling that you are more perfect than others, whereas the only thing that really matters is realization. Because of this, following rules can be an obstacle. You need more than that.
So you're telling me a rule I should follow which is don't follow rules.

Gotcha.
No. What I am telling is to follow rules but avoid illusion that can arise from following the rules.
Following rules helps avoiding negative karma and creates positive karma through the intention. But this is not enough alone. One has to be aware and recognize subtle tendencies that can become obstacles.
Avoiding negative karma and creating positive karma helps you to prepare a good base, but this all is still within the framework of karma and samsara.
At some point you have to transcend it, even if it be in another life. Preferebly in the current one, of course.
And you know me so well you can advise me on what I'm doing right and wrong?

Go on.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:30 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:32 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:23 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:14 pm
So, some samsara is just being human, but other samsara is something we should work on.
Would you argue that eating meat is just as serious of an offence than killing humans? This explicitely contradicts traditional Buddhist teachings.
No. But if you can also stop stealing, sounds like a plan. Stop contributing to the suffering of beings being slaughtered for food? That's great, too. Ending samsara requires complete effort.
I agree that it's a reasonable thing to do, and have mentioned a bunch of times that I think it's a valid personal/spiritual choice. When it becomes Lifestyle Politics is where I take issue with it.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

Simon E.
Posts: 7434
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Simon E. » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:31 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:26 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:15 pm
No you are quite correct. I have a range of firmly held views on a number of political, social and artistic matters.
But I have no “opinions” on the Vajrayana. Like all Vajrayana students I merely put my feet into the footprints of the masters.


You are either on or off the Vajrayana bus. ( To mix metaphors).
By opinionating on DW about those foot prints.
OK I’ll desist. :namaste:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

tatpurusa
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by tatpurusa » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:37 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:29 pm
And you know me so well you can advise me on what I'm doing right and wrong?

Go on.
No, I am not advising you at all. I am merely respondig to what you wrote about my original statements, explaining my point of view.
In no way do I want to influence you, but I do not want to be misunderstood or misinterpreted either, that's all.

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rory
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by rory » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:39 pm

If someone wants to know what buddhists mean by 'attachment' this is the best example that I have ever seen!
gassho
Rory

PS vegan me isn't worried. They're developing cloned meat in Israel and elsewhere, you'll all be eating it before long. I'm good with that...though the ethics are interesting to contemplate.
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Great Vegan Debate

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:42 pm

rory wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:39 pm
If someone wants to know what buddhists mean by 'attachment' this is the best example that I have ever seen!
gassho
Rory
Yeah, well, that works on other levels too. Like I said, people love their identities.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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