Giving Up Masturbation

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DharmaN00b
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by DharmaN00b »

If you're pretty enough you can sell your bathwater and soiled undies for big stacks. Performers are often no more titillating than those you might find in a swimwear catalog. The rest is up to imagination. I guess you could call it Mill and Boon for blokes.
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Tiago Simões wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:44 pm There are plenty of modern female porn directors who dedicate themselves to making ethical porn. Like Malcolm said, not all porn is the same.

Pornography is a cinematic art, and as such, actors might be abused and exploited, just like in any other cinematic industry. The standards of ethical treatment vary. It's important to evaluate the content you consume, If you are going to consume it. Make sure the platform you are using as a high standards, make sure the actors are well paid and not exploited.
Well, not all porn is cinematic either. You have porn novels, etc.
Tiago Simões
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:46 pm
Tiago Simões wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:44 pm There are plenty of modern female porn directors who dedicate themselves to making ethical porn. Like Malcolm said, not all porn is the same.

Pornography is a cinematic art, and as such, actors might be abused and exploited, just like in any other cinematic industry. The standards of ethical treatment vary. It's important to evaluate the content you consume, If you are going to consume it. Make sure the platform you are using as a high standards, make sure the actors are well paid and not exploited.
Well, not all porn is cinematic either. You have porn novels, etc.
True, but while porn novels can have negative depictions of women, at least no one is exploited...
mirrormind
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by mirrormind »

No objections to seeing great sexual chemistry going on. That is very different from someone just going through the motions who is not really there and does not really want to be.

I just wanted to offer the perspective that if you really look at what you get to see in most porn, it is not very attractive and may lose its addictive power rather quickly.
You can't think your way out of samsara.
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Grigoris
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Grigoris »

Tiago Simões wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:44 pm There are plenty of modern female porn directors who dedicate themselves to making ethical porn. Like Malcolm said, not all porn is the same.

Pornography is a cinematic art, and as such, actors might be abused and exploited, just like in any other cinematic industry. The standards of ethical treatment vary. It's important to evaluate the content you consume, If you are going to consume it, make sure the platform you are using as a high standards, make sure the actors are well paid and not exploited.
Under capitalism, all labour is exploitation.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Wayfarer
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Wayfarer »

Norwegian wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:04 pm So just like that, you ignore the entire existence of Vajrayana and its tradition, which is long-lasting. A lot longer lasting than the prudish views of Victorian society. And a lot longer lasting than whatever views are adopted by people today, of whatever strand.
I have never claimed to be an initiate in vajrayana and never discuss it on this forum. I don’t claim to represent it and I don’t criticize it.

My remarks about ‘traditional Buddhism’ really are simply remarks about cultures generally, they could apply to any culture whatever. It is a fact that global culture has gone through revolutionary changes in respect of sexual relations and identity in the last century. That vajrayana Buddhism was brought into a discussion about masturbation and pornography as a justification seems very sad to me. I would hope that pornography is not any kind of problem to those who have gone beyond the need for it, but it seems to me that it only exists because of the multitude of people that haven’t got beyond those cravings, myself included.

I think maybe this is the wrong forum for me, I am going to ask the mods to terminate my account for once and for all.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
Tiago Simões
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Tiago Simões »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:45 pm
Tiago Simões wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:44 pm There are plenty of modern female porn directors who dedicate themselves to making ethical porn. Like Malcolm said, not all porn is the same.

Pornography is a cinematic art, and as such, actors might be abused and exploited, just like in any other cinematic industry. The standards of ethical treatment vary. It's important to evaluate the content you consume, If you are going to consume it, make sure the platform you are using as a high standards, make sure the actors are well paid and not exploited.
Under capitalism, all labour is exploitation.
For once, let's not wander off this topic, masturbation and porn.
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Wayfarer wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:56 pm That vajrayana Buddhism was brought into a discussion about masturbation and pornography as a justification seems very sad to me.
Perhaps Vajrayana is more realistic about the human condition than renunciation-oriented forms of Buddhism. it’s origin story, after all, involved an Indian king with 500 wives whom he was obligated to service, so the Buddha taught him a method where he would not have to abandon sense objects, but rather, employ them on the path.

“The fire of gnosis will not burn without the fuel of afflictions” — Garab Dorje.
Malcolm
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Malcolm »

Wayfarer wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:56 pm I think maybe this is the wrong forum for me, I am going to ask the mods to terminate my account for once and for all.
Don’t be silly. There is certainly no reason for that. But, you are free.
Tiago Simões
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:21 pm “The fire of gnosis will not burn without the fuel of afflictions” — Garab Dorje.
Reminds me of this passage from the Vimalakirti Sutra
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti asked the crown prince Mañjuśrī, “Mañjuśrī, what is the ‘family of the tathāgatas’?”

Mañjuśrī replied, “Noble sir, the family of the tathāgatas consists of all basic egoism; of ignorance and the thirst for existence; of lust, hate, and folly; of the four misapprehensions; of the five obscurations; of the six sense-media; of the seven abodes of consciousness; of the eight perverse paths; of the nine causes of irritation; and of the paths of the ten sins. Such is the family of the tathāgatas. In short, noble sir, the sixty-two kinds of convictions constitute the family of the tathāgatas!”
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Wayfarer
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Wayfarer »

OK I won’t terminate my account, I’ll always end up coming back.

There are many adverse consequences from exposure to pornography - a well-known one is that young males (in particular) loose interest in relationships with women and often the capacity to have sexual relationships at all due, to a condition called penile disfunction. Habituation at a young age often undermines the capacity for real sexual intimacy with actual people. There is debate about whether habituation really is ‘addiction’, but there’s no doubt that huge numbers of people are becoming deeply habituated to it. So I don’t accept that being critical of the scale of today’s pornography industry is ‘Victorian’. It’s an obvious moral hazard.

The other thing I really don’t understand, is how acceptance of pornography fits with Buddhist teachings about the canker of sensuality. Everywhere outside Vajrayana, this term is used to describe the ‘chasing of sensual pleasure’ as one of the principle drawbacks to pursuit of the spiritual path. I understand that Vajrayana is supposed to ‘transmute the passions’ such that such pursuits are incorporated into the spiritual path, although as I said I am not a tantric initiate. But how is porn addiction any less deleterious to the spiritual path than alcoholism or drug addiction or gambling addiction? Why should it be regarded as praise-worthy?

I think part of the answer to that - and this has nothing to do with Buddhism per se - is that in our hedonistic culture, pleasure and happiness are basically regarded as the same thing. So ‘sexual liberation’ is regarded as liberating, because it supposedly allows you to pursue sexual pleasure without any of the inhibitions that used to be associated with it. I think that’s why criticism of it draws such strong reactions - criticism is seen as a threat to the pursuit of pleasure. Once when I expressed conservative views on this forum, I had a picture of Hitler and Goebels pasted in after it, which I found interesting. (But then, criticising pornography on the internet is like criticising beer in a pub.)
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
Tiago Simões
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Tiago Simões »

Tiago Simões wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:40 pm
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti asked the crown prince Mañjuśrī, “Mañjuśrī, what is the ‘family of the tathāgatas’?”

Mañjuśrī replied, “Noble sir, the family of the tathāgatas consists of all basic egoism; of ignorance and the thirst for existence; of lust, hate, and folly; of the four misapprehensions; of the five obscurations; of the six sense-media; of the seven abodes of consciousness; of the eight perverse paths; of the nine causes of irritation; and of the paths of the ten sins. Such is the family of the tathāgatas. In short, noble sir, the sixty-two kinds of convictions constitute the family of the tathāgatas!”
Btw, here's a commentary on this passage by DJKR:
I wonder if we will ever be able to appreciate this conversation fully?
It’s unbearable for many of us even to contemplate the notion that cleanliness can be found in the midst of filth. Yet cleanliness can only be found in filth. And for those of us who are stuck with the idea that cleanliness is a puritanical state that is entirely independent and separate from filth, emotions and defilements, such a statement is so bewildering as to be virtually inconceivable.
“Son of a Noble Family,” said Mañjuśrī, “Emotions are the ingredients that make a buddha. Ignorance, craving, desire and anger are the buddha family.”
Here, Mañjuśrī offered hope and encouragement by making a mockery of our ideas about clean and dirty. He said that good can only be found in the bad and the ugly. Was he merely giving a politically correct pep talk, or saying things he didn’t mean just to cheer us up? No, he was expressing a hard and piercing truth. For some, it is an unbearable truth, but for others, it is the most encouraging thing we have ever heard. “If you plant a seed in the sky,” said Mañjuśrī, “It won’t ever grow into a flower. Likewise, a buddha cannot arise from the uncompounded state; buddha – enlightenment – will only arise where there are compounded phenomena.”
So Mañjuśrī is not denigrating compounded phenomena; he is not saying compounded phenomena are unholy, or some kind of stain. What he’s saying is that compounded phenomena are impermanent, but even so, we venerate them. For the philosophically-minded, this is an important point.
confusedlayman
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by confusedlayman »

it takes u far away from nibbana...
Simon E.
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Simon E. »

“U” might like to know that “nibbana” is Pali. Pali is the language of the Theravada. This is a Mahayana forum.
So we would say Nirvana.
Whether wanking takes you away from Nirvana is a whole other debate. Perhaps we you tell us what you understand by Nibbana/Nirvana?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Charlie123
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Charlie123 »

Better to masturbate than to have sex w/ lots of different strangers or w/ a long-term partner who creates obstacles to your path to liberation.

Better to masturbate than to repress your sexual desire and get all weird and twisted up about the whole thing. Repression can lead to all sorts of unhealthy behaviors. Many people just end up playing unhealthy behavior wack-a-mole.

I mean come on. We have bodies; most of use get horny. If you are a lay person, be realistic. Just try to approach masturbation in a balanced way.

If you are a śrāmaṇera, śrāmaṇerī, bhikṣu or bhikṣuṇī then it is different.
Nonetheless, most people posting on DW are not following that path.
Charlie123
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Charlie123 »

But, if you have an addiction to 'frak e d' up porn genres, I understand wanting to quit.
DharmaN00b
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by DharmaN00b »

mandog wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:01 am Better to masturbate than to repress your sexual desire and get all weird and twisted up about the whole thing. Repression can lead to all sorts of unhealthy behaviors. Many people just end up playing unhealthy behavior wack-a-mole.
Just to possibly add to that point:

In my view unhealthy sexual behaviours could be a symptom of moralizing. If sex or porn becomes bad then there is an element of punishment there. The body responds with fight or flight and begins to associate what is essentially a biological imperative as danger, where every action is risky, dirty, taboo or awful. I mean microbes are a big risk, and what seems exciting on screen can be just a bit gross.

Of course, for many of us, sex is far less risky. Masturbation even less so, but one thing missing is oxytocin the bonding hormone (So long as there are suitable people to bond with).
Charlie123
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Re: Giving Up Masturbation

Post by Charlie123 »

It is also worth mentioning that many of the examples of sexual misconduct featured in the LamRim texts of the 4 schools are culturally relative. The basic principle with any of the 7 non-virtues of body or speech is to avoid actions that harm or disturb the minds of other sentient beings.
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