Dharma Wheel

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:45 pmAnd also if traditional Buddhists speak up against liberal moral views, it doesn't necessarily go well for them. But reticence ought not to be taken as assent.

Yes, those damn westerners always trying to project their views on sex on Indian religions...

Who’s the Buddhist in that frieze, do you think?

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:38 am Victorian, yeah. If you're not hip then you're an antique.

It has nothing to do with being "hip" or "modern" and so on. Nor does it have anything to do with someone's "social views".

It is an actual fact.

You have a specific view of what Buddhism is or should be, but that view does not correspond with reality. You've mentioned "traditional" Buddhism before a few times, but the kind of Buddhism you refer to, is only a fraction of the living breathing Buddhadharma that we know, which has been practiced and is being practiced.

For example, if I were to ask you, what kind of teachings have you received on karma mudra, the answer would be none, right? And if I were to ask you, what kind of teachings have you received on sexual yogas and the use of sexual pleasure, for an ordinary practitioner (whether alone, or with a partner), the answer would be none, right? Because in order to receive these kinds of teachings, you would have to have a qualified guru of Vajrayana from whom you receive these teachings.

So just like that, you ignore the entire existence of Vajrayana and its tradition, which is long-lasting. A lot longer lasting than the prudish views of Victorian society. And a lot longer lasting than whatever views are adopted by people today, of whatever strand.

The question now is, are you going to readjust your position, and try to understand that your idea of sexuality in Buddhism is very narrow and limited, and that you have mistaken ideas, or will you double down and keep at it and think that you've got it all figured out and everybody else are just wrong? Because I'll tell you again: Your idea of "traditional" Buddhism is riddled with misconceptions. It doesn't help that it's a very narrow take on things, and clearly influenced by a prudish view.

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:01 pm Who’s the Buddhist in that frieze, do you think?

You want a picture of a Buddhist? Is that it?

Well, here you go:


That would be Samantabhadra in union with Samantabhadri. Dharmakaya of Dharmakaya. Can't get any higher than that. As traditional as can be, since it is beyond time.

You want something related to a Buddhist society perhaps?

Let's visit Bhutan then, a traditional Buddhist country if there ever was one:

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:01 pm Who’s the Buddhist in that frieze, do you think?

Let's see... Guru Rinpoche, Drukpa Kunleg, Various indian Mahasiddhas... Lot's of examples of Buddhist masters who didn't give a frak about sexual social norms.

Well, obviously I'm in the wrong forum. I too struggle with porn, it draws me in, and I hate myself for doing it. Probably I'm too fraught with guilt to be able to benefit from the higher teachings which are obviously being disseminated here, so I guess I should sign out for a while.

I must have missed the memo that said pursuit of sexual pleasure is OK after all. So, is the case that if you have some kind of 'tantric initiation', then pornography is OK after all? Is that what you're both saying? It kind of conflicts with what I thought Buddhism was about, but what to I know, I'm not even a hearer, probably.

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:14 pm Well, obviously I'm in the wrong forum. I too struggle with porn, it draws me in, and I hate myself for doing it. Probably I'm too fraught with guilt to be able to benefit from the higher teachings which are obviously being disseminated here, so I guess I should sign out for a while. Sayonara.

If you struggle with porn, if it's really a problem for you, then you should stop consuming it. But this should not be seen as advice for everyone, not everyone struggles with it.

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:14 pm I must have missed the memo that said pursuit of sexual pleasure is OK after all. So, is the case that if you have some kind of 'tantric initiation', then pornography is OK after all? Is that what you're both saying? It kind of conflicts with what I thought Buddhism was about, but what to I know, I'm not even a hearer, probably.

Buddha taught freedom from both attachment and aversion. This point has nothing to do with Tantra.

'Struggling with it' is precisely not being able to 'stop consuming it'. If anyone really has the strength of will just to walk away, or has no interest in it, then, for sure, it's not a problem for them. But if everyone were like that, then it would hardly exist, but as it is, it's probably the very largest category of media consumption on the internet.

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:14 pm Well, obviously I'm in the wrong forum. I too struggle with porn, it draws me in, and I hate myself for doing it. Probably I'm too fraught with guilt to be able to benefit from the higher teachings which are obviously being disseminated here, so I guess I should sign out for a while. Sayonara.

If you struggle with porn addiction, that is another issue entirely. Addictions of any kind can and should be dealt with. That's fine. Then it's up to you how you deal with that in the best way possible.

What we're discussing here though, or rather critiquing, is your idea of what constitutes "traditional Buddhism", something you've mentioned a number of times, in the context of sex and sexuality. You have a mistaken idea, which simply does not correspond with reality. That is all. The sooner you realize it the better.

Also, nobody are disseminating teachings here. We're simply saying that there's much more to Buddhist sexuality than some sort of puritan / prudish / Victorian attitude towards it.

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:22 pm 'Struggling with it' is precisely not being able to 'stop consuming it'. If anyone really has the strength of will just to walk away, or has no interest in it, then, for sure, it's not a problem for them. But if everyone were like that, then it would hardly exist, but as it is, it's probably the very largest category of media consumption on the internet.

By "Struggling with it'",do you mean it's actually affecting your life negatively? You're relationships, etc...?

Struggling with it, because I believe it’s morally wrong, for the reasons I’ve given.

In an ideal world, nobody would ever do anything they thought they ought not to do, but that is not the world that the Buddha taught in.

Norwegian wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:24 pm If you struggle with porn addiction, that is another issue entirely. Addictions of any kind can and should be dealt with. That's fine. Then it's up to you how you deal with that in the best way possible.

What we're discussing here though, or rather critiquing, is your idea of what constitutes "traditional Buddhism", something you've mentioned a number of times, in the context of sex and sexuality. You have a mistaken idea, which simply does not correspond with reality. That is all. The sooner you realize it the better.

Well, please explain to me, how the performance of sexual acts for an audience for the purposes of attracting either attention or money is *not* a violation of the precept of ‘avoiding sexual misconduct’? How is it not?

Notice how you ‘subjectivise’ the issue - oh well, if it’s a problem for you, then obviously you need to ‘seek treatment’. Well, yes, it is a problem for me, but it wouldn’t be a problem for me, or millions of other people, if it had not somehow become just another feature of ‘the modern world’ - like plastic pollution, perhaps. (Millions of seabirds die, thinking this is real food. The analogy is apt.)

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:57 pm Struggling with it, because I believe it’s morally wrong, for the reasons I’ve given.

So it hasn't harmed your life in anyway?

Well, please explain to me, how the performance of sexual acts for an audience for the purposes of attracting either attention or money is *not* a violation of the precept of ‘avoiding sexual misconduct’? How is it not?

Why *is it*?

Yes, why indeed? Why do some people think like that? Presumably, they’re ‘VIctorian’.

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:18 pm Yes, why indeed? Why do some people think like that? Presumably, they’re ‘VIctorian’.

I'm not asking "some people", I'm asking you.

Hey Wayfarer,

let me just begin that I am when it comes to interpretations of sexual misconduct on the opposite side from yours, however that does not change your reality, now does it? It seems that you are really struggling with it and that is what matters. And while you may be bit more "victorian"... well interpretations of the precepts vary and some of us are completely sober and some can enjoy a cold one with friends. So why should it matter here, really. (This is in your support, I know it probably sounds like the opposite.)

Anyway, what I really want to say is that I hope you don't feel too bad about it. What helped me stop drinking was that I stopped making it so emotional. I stopped glorifying my drunk moments (and that was hard since I basically grew up with this attitude where everyone drank from my sister to my father and beyond) but importantly I also stopped beating myself up (hehe) when I slipped. Made it easier to go back into sobriety and I actually rejoiced that I lessened the amount and frequency. And with time it became less and less frequent and normal and now I havent been properly drunk for over a year and had like one night out that I bit regreted the next day, but mostly because I drank not because I drank too much. Hope this helps.

Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:57 pm
Well, please explain to me, how the performance of sexual acts for an audience for the purposes of attracting either attention or money is *not* a violation of the precept of ‘avoiding sexual misconduct’? How is it not?

The Buddha nowhere mentions sex work as sexual misconduct. Independent, unmarried people are free to do as they wish. If people are in polyamorous relationships, they are also free, since it is all consensual.

As I pointed out, Āmrapālī was one of the Buddha's direct disciples, and he gave several teachings at her place while she was still working as a courtesan.

And, it is held in the Candamahārośana Tantra that the farm girl who restored the Buddha to health with rice milk was in fact his consort.

And in general, in Vajrayāna, sexual activity is taken into the path, not renounced or avoided. So yes, even porn stars can be good Buddhists if they choose.

Porn is like booze: every one watches it, everyone enjoys it in some form or another, and everyone complains it is "bad."

Pornography has almost nothing to do with sex.

The word itself translates as "the depiction of prostitution".

Prostitution is as sexual as rape, ie not at all. It is just about power.

I believe that pornography has an extremely destructive influence. Coupled with a lack of proper sex education, it leads to all sorts of (dangerous at times) misconceptions.

Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:17 pm everyone enjoys it in some form or another."

I quit porn when I could not bear anymore to see the empty eyes and the blank stare of the women involved. This realisation was very effective for me. Every once in a while I am tempted again, but each time it has the same effect on me. Compassion is definitely stronger than lust.

mirrormind wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:51 pm

Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:17 pm everyone enjoys it in some form or another."

I quit porn when I could not bear anymore to see the empty eyes and the blank stare of the women involved. This realisation was very effective for me. Every once in a while I am tempted again, but each time it has the same effect on me. Compassion is definitely stronger than lust.

There are all kinds of porn, not all of it is found at Pornhub. These days, some people have turned making it into full time hobby. Like anything, it cannot be reduced to one monolithic entity.

There are plenty of modern female porn directors who dedicate themselves to making ethical porn. Like Malcolm said, not all porn is the same.

Pornography is a cinematic art, and as such, actors might be abused and exploited, just like in any other cinematic industry. The standards of ethical treatment vary. It's important to evaluate the content you consume, If you are going to consume it, make sure the platform you are using as a high standards, make sure the actors are well paid and not exploited.