Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

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Cianan
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Cianan » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:29 pm
Saturated fats are not a problem as long as one eats a diet low in carbohydrates (simple and complex) since the saturated fats are then broken down by the body for use in energy production.

BUT the idea of a balanced diet being unhealthy is a ludicrous concept. If one eats more saturated fats, then they need to eat less carbohydrates. If one takes meat and fish out of the equation then they need to eat more pulses and legumes. That is what a balanced diet is about: getting the right combination of various food stuffs to guarantee a healthy functioning body.

No one nutritional substance is better or worse than another.

That sort of thinking is for food faddists.
I didn't want to derail the thread any more, but I wanted to comment how I only intended to address how the US government has been untenably making a scapegoat of a significant macronutrient in human breast milk for all dietary evil for half a century without pointing out why we really have so many issues stemming from diet in developed countries: overabundance of processed foods and carbohydrates now especially resulting from rejection of fats. We serve children non-fat milk in school when those fats loaded with fat-soluble vitamins would have likely been the most nutritious part of their meal. Dr. Aseem Malhotra, consultant cardiologist and founding member of the Public Health Collaboration, a group of medics, said dietary guidelines promoting low-fat foods were “perhaps the biggest mistake in modern medical history, resulting in devastating consequences for public health."

Otherwise, you simply don't understand the hurdles of overcoming the health problems along the lines of obesity. The body has a hard time letting go of being overweight, being insulin resistant, having high blood pressure and so forth, no matter if you limit your eating on a so-called balanced diet for years. Researchers and those with first-hand experience are more impressed with therapeutic diets than you are, and with good reason.
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Grigoris
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:03 pm

Cianan wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:58 pm
I didn't want to derail the thread any more, but I wanted to comment how I only intended to address how the US government has been untenably making a scapegoat of a significant macronutrient in human breast milk for all dietary evil for half a century without pointing out why we really have so many issues stemming from diet in developed countries: overabundance of processed foods and carbohydrates now especially resulting from rejection of fats. We serve children non-fat milk in school when those fats loaded with fat-soluble vitamins would have likely been the most nutritious part of their meal. Dr. Aseem Malhotra, consultant cardiologist and founding member of the Public Health Collaboration, a group of medics, said dietary guidelines promoting low-fat foods were “perhaps the biggest mistake in modern medical history, resulting in devastating consequences for public health."

Otherwise, you simply don't understand the hurdles of overcoming the health problems along the lines of obesity. The body has a hard time letting go of being overweight, being insulin resistant, having high blood pressure and so forth, no matter if you limit your eating on a so-called balanced diet for years. Researchers and those with first-hand experience are more impressed with therapeutic diets than you are, and with good reason.
Seems to me you are responding without actually reading my post. A pretty common phenomenon here on DW (one that I am guilty of as well, I must admit).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Cianan
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Cianan » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:03 pm
Cianan wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:58 pm
I didn't want to derail the thread any more, but I wanted to comment how I only intended to address how the US government has been untenably making a scapegoat of a significant macronutrient in human breast milk for all dietary evil for half a century without pointing out why we really have so many issues stemming from diet in developed countries: overabundance of processed foods and carbohydrates now especially resulting from rejection of fats. We serve children non-fat milk in school when those fats loaded with fat-soluble vitamins would have likely been the most nutritious part of their meal. Dr. Aseem Malhotra, consultant cardiologist and founding member of the Public Health Collaboration, a group of medics, said dietary guidelines promoting low-fat foods were “perhaps the biggest mistake in modern medical history, resulting in devastating consequences for public health."

Otherwise, you simply don't understand the hurdles of overcoming the health problems along the lines of obesity. The body has a hard time letting go of being overweight, being insulin resistant, having high blood pressure and so forth, no matter if you limit your eating on a so-called balanced diet for years. Researchers and those with first-hand experience are more impressed with therapeutic diets than you are, and with good reason.
Seems to me you are responding without actually reading my post. A pretty common phenomenon here on DW (one that I am guilty of as well, I must admit).
I see what you mean. :lol:

It was really the "faddist" part that struck me given that some of the most effective dietary measures we're uncovering are frequently dismissed as a fad. People are working hard to help raise awareness about the need to review some of our long-standing conceptions about nutrition! Like you said, though, you have to find a balance, and you will certainly find people tending too far towards another extreme.
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rory
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by rory » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:08 pm

I've been about 85% vegan for over 20 years. Weigh the same as I did as a teenager and very fit (98lbs!) . My dad at 70 started eating this way and lived until 91 with a sharp mind and doing his shopping, fit etc died in his sleep at home.

what I do: cook vegan at home
when I go out (max 1x a week) : have whatever I want; cheese ravioli, meat etc
This works great.
Remember

dairy, butter, cheese are filled with saturated fats. Use olive oil, peanut oil to cook, avocados, nuts, seeds for good fats (fats are very important!)
beans, tofu, seitan are protein powerhouses. Fake meats: Morning Star, Gardein are you friend. (yes they are highly processed but if you eat them with whole grains and vegetables it's a great way to start)
whole grains: brown rice, w.w. cous cous, corn grits, bulgur, w.w. spaghetti, whole grain breads, etc. Don't eat white carbs they have been stripped of all nutrition. Eat them out.
fruit, dates.

Easy dinners: buy/make tomato faux meat sauce add 1 bag soy crumbles + brocolli, eggplant, green beans. Cook w.w spaghetti. add salad.
bake sweet potato, top with tofu sour cream, chives, scallions, cook veggie burger, side corn on the cob, avocado slices, salad.
Asian stir fry: buy sauce + tofu/tempeh add peppers, sprouts, greens.
bean chili with faux meat crumbles top with veggies.

it really is easy to do it this way, because you are never saying goodbye to your favourite foods. It allows you to indulge but at home if you don't have that crap (chips, candy, soda) you aren't tempted.
gassho
Rory
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Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by EarthlingsFilm » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:21 am

Plants take up more space in the stomach per calorie and require more calories to digest than animal products. In the beginning, it may feel like you need to eat a bit more volume to get the same amount of calories.

Also, I should mention that I spent a few years as a vegetarian before becoming vegan. Looking back, I regret every meal that contained dead animals or their secretions and I wish I had done it sooner. If you need assistance on the transition, www.adaptt.org is a fantastic resource.

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Kim O'Hara » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:35 am

If you want more inspiration and encouragement to minimise meat in your diet ...

:namaste:
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Dharma Flower » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 am

While vegetarianism is a noble lifestyle choice, is there a way we can reduce the cruelty and environmental destruction of the livestock industry without insisting for the general population to give up meat entirely?

If humans are natural omnivores, would we lack compassion for our fellow human beings by insisting for others to give up meat entirely? These are honest questions without easy answers.

How Humans Evolved To Be Natural Omnivores
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016 ... 025d847af5

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Queequeg
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Queequeg » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:33 pm

Compassionately raise your own meat or buy it from someone who does. And get a second or third job because compassionately raised meat is expensive.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Dharma Flower » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:00 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:33 pm
Compassionately raise your own meat or buy it from someone who does. And get a second or third job because compassionately raised meat is expensive.
You're right, it is prohibitively expensive, perhaps due to ethical meat producers not receiving the same federal subsidies as large agribusiness.

Something I’ve never thought of before is that compassion toward animals should include humans as well, who are also animals.

If humans are natural omnivores, whether biologically, genetically, etc., then it might be cruel or unfair to insist that our fellow humans not eat what is a natural part of their diet.

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Queequeg
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Queequeg » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:40 pm

I don't know if it actually holds true, but our species has traditionally held itself apart from animals because we have the ability to live beyond just natural instincts and immediate gratification. In Buddhism, for instance, the animal world is defined by domination and submission based on who can kill who. Its the Hobbesian idea of the natural state - "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short." Our spiritual advancement is fundamentally due to the fact that we don't just try and kill and eat, or rape whoever is weaker than us. We have the ability to love and care for each other, embodied in the idealized mother, and this karmic development is reflected in our physical appearance - we have no exoskeletal armor, no fur, no big claws or teeth to maul - instead, we have soft, sensitive skin, supple hands, developed brains, etc.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Dharma Flower » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:48 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:40 pm
Our spiritual advancement is fundamentally due to the fact that we don't just try and kill and eat whoever is weaker than us.
(2) Unless one actually kills an animal oneself (which seldom happens today) by eating meat one is not directly responsible for the animal’s death and in this sense the non- vegetarian is no different from the vegetarian. The latter can only eat his vegetables because the farmer has ploughed his fields (thus killing many creatures) and sprayed the crop (again killing many creatures).

(3) While the vegetarian will not eat meat he does use numerous other products that lead to animals being killed (soap, leather, serum, silk etc.) Why abstain from one while using the others?

(4) Good qualities like understanding, patience, generosity and honesty and bad qualities like ignorance, pride, hypocrisy, jealousy and indifference do not depend on what one eats and therefore diet is not a significant factor in spiritual development.
https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dh ... /fdd21.htm
Can we have large-scale food production without animals being harmed in some way? Also, is compassion toward our fellow human beings more important than the dietary choices we make?
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:40 pm
...and this karmic development is reflected in our physical appearance - we have no fur, no big claws or teeth to maul - instead, we have soft, sensitive skin, supple hands, developed brains, etc.
Is our species naturally omnivorous, rather than being predisposed as carnivores or herbivores?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016 ... 025d847af5

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Queequeg
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Queequeg » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:58 pm

Using that big brain of ours, we're pretty close to being able to make meat without harvesting it off a sentient being. And its certainly possible to live, right now, with a complete, well rounded diet without having to consume meat.

Killing is not necessary. It can be avoided. But the swing of samsara in this world has gone so far that even if one stopped eating meat, basically everything we do involves meat consumption at some point. Its hard to be stainless.

And that, for me anyway, is the end of the debate.

But seriously, this conversation should be taken to the "great vegetarian debate" thread if you want to pursue this.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Dharma Flower » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:01 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:58 pm
But seriously, this conversation should be taken to the "great vegetarian debate" thread if you want to pursue this.
I will respect that and not continue this. I don't want debate as much as understanding and compassion for all sides, which I think we already have here.

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:54 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:00 pm
If humans are natural omnivores, whether biologically, genetically, etc., then it might be cruel or unfair to insist that our fellow humans not eat what is a natural part of their diet.
Humans are not "naturally" anything when it comes to diet. Our diet is based on availability and ability. I would never say to somebody living in an environment where there is a lack of vegetables for consumption, or have health problems that require eating meat, to stop eating meat and/or other animal products.

But (especially) in developed western countries this is a minuscule portion of the population. It is clear that meat is being eaten by the vast proportion of the West's population merely out of habit and a desire for the taste of murdered animals, than from a true need. As such...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Mantrik » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:54 pm

Humans are not "naturally" anything when it comes to diet. Our diet is based on availability and ability. I would never say to somebody living in an environment where there is a lack of vegetables for consumption, or have health problems that require eating meat, to stop eating meat and/or other animal products.
I hope that one day, people will be able to choose to live in areas where there is enough plant material to sustain them. Even then, it may be hard to persuade them, even if life would be easier, due to cultural ties.

I'm interested in the 'health' issues which may only respond to meat eating as a remedy. I know HHDL has said he eats meat for health reasons, but I am unaware of any condition which demands treatment by meat, nothing else being acceptable. Is there one? Is it a Tibetan medical perspective? (General question to those who know.)
http://www.khyung.com

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Dharma Flower » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:37 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:26 pm
I know HHDL has said he eats meat for health reasons, but I am unaware of any condition which demands treatment by meat, nothing else being acceptable.
Could it be a condition that requires more protein, iron, Vitamin D, or B vitamins? Or a condition that prevents a person from being able to eat carbs?

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:49 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:26 pm
I'm interested in the 'health' issues which may only respond to meat eating as a remedy.
Mediterranean sickle cell anemia is an example I can think off.

People that suffer from irritable bowel syndrome generally have a tough time digesting plant based products and so need to add meat or animal based products to their diet for nutritional reasons.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Mantrik » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:49 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:26 pm
I'm interested in the 'health' issues which may only respond to meat eating as a remedy.
Mediterranean sickle cell anemia is an example I can think off.

People that suffer from irritable bowel syndrome generally have a tough time digesting plant based products and so need to add meat or animal based products to their diet for nutritional reasons.
Other sources of iron are available, but I don't know enough about sickle cell apart from the genetic aspect.

IBS is a very individual condition. I had it for years and two decades ago the treatment was ....... bran! Buckets of bran! Aaargh!! Nowadays it is accepted that it is a matter of trial and error, and I can say that plant-based protein is not a problem universally, just some forms for some people, mainly pulses of course. Now we have soya, quorn, tofu etc. I think it highly unlikely that anyone with IBS would need meat for protein or any other dietary need.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:18 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:26 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:54 pm

Humans are not "naturally" anything when it comes to diet. Our diet is based on availability and ability. I would never say to somebody living in an environment where there is a lack of vegetables for consumption, or have health problems that require eating meat, to stop eating meat and/or other animal products.
I hope that one day, people will be able to choose to live in areas where there is enough plant material to sustain them. Even then, it may be hard to persuade them, even if life would be easier, due to cultural ties.

I'm interested in the 'health' issues which may only respond to meat eating as a remedy. I know HHDL has said he eats meat for health reasons, but I am unaware of any condition which demands treatment by meat, nothing else being acceptable. Is there one? Is it a Tibetan medical perspective? (General question to those who know.)
My guess is that it's a Tibetan medical perspective. Various meats are recommended to treat different health conditions. There's a fascinating table in Rinpoche's book Birth, Life, and Death about this.

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Mantrik
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Mantrik » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:26 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:18 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:26 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:54 pm

Humans are not "naturally" anything when it comes to diet. Our diet is based on availability and ability. I would never say to somebody living in an environment where there is a lack of vegetables for consumption, or have health problems that require eating meat, to stop eating meat and/or other animal products.
I hope that one day, people will be able to choose to live in areas where there is enough plant material to sustain them. Even then, it may be hard to persuade them, even if life would be easier, due to cultural ties.

I'm interested in the 'health' issues which may only respond to meat eating as a remedy. I know HHDL has said he eats meat for health reasons, but I am unaware of any condition which demands treatment by meat, nothing else being acceptable. Is there one? Is it a Tibetan medical perspective? (General question to those who know.)
My guess is that it's a Tibetan medical perspective. Various meats are recommended to treat different health conditions. There's a fascinating table in Rinpoche's book Birth, Life, and Death about this.
Ah thanks. I'll take a look. :)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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