Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

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seeker242
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by seeker242 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:16 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 am
If humans are natural omnivores, would we lack compassion for our fellow human beings by insisting for others to give up meat entirely? These are honest questions without easy answers.
I don't think so because "omnivore" doesn't mean one is required to eat plants AND animals to get nutrients, it means one can eat plants OR animals to get nutrients. By definition, an omnivore can digest and obtain nutrients from plant food OR animal food OR any combination of the above. If humans were carnivores, then you could say it would lack compassion.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Tlalok » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:57 am

Honestly the only real benefit I can see out of eating meat is the ease of access to high protein sources. IIRC lean chicken breast is almost totally protein with minuscule fat. I cut out meat a long time ago, but I don't miss it, even with my nutritional goals. Possibly the taste is important to some people, but vegan chicken tastes identical, and I've seen some AMAZING work recently on dairy / meat substitutes (I went to a vegan restaurant the other day and had a sunny side up (vegan) egg on a (vegan) steak that oozed red juices and tasted almost the same as beef.

I'm training to be a better powerlifter and am trying to fit ~160g of protein into 1800 calories / day. That is doable, if repetitive, using only vegetarian sources. Tofu, cottage cheese, (Plain) Greek yoghurt, and whey are all excellent sources of protein. You can get very far with just beans and rice as well, but the carb content can sneak up on you fast.

My partner is vegan, which does bring some other nutritional concerns into play if you want to pick heavy things up and down again for fun. IIRC plant based diets can lead to deficiencies in BCAAs which can lead to issues with protein synthesis (or something). This is probably not a major concern for most people. Carnitine is also is important for burning fatty acids that can be limited for vegans. Those the only main issues I know of for vegans, and are really only applicable if you want to be a bodybuilder. My partner spends like a $40 every few months for these supplements which is nothing in the long run.

Meat eaters are always asking vegetarians and vegans where they get their protein from, and its infuriating! It literally took me an extra 10 minutes going around the grocery store looking at labels until I could work out appropriate replacements for meat in my diet, and I eat a stupid amount of protein. A small price to pay for slightly lessening the burden on the natural world. I'll go vegan one day, I promise.

Although, in WOMPT Patrul Rinpoche stresses on the chapter about the sufferings of samsara that even tea leads to suffering because of the bugs and critters that live in the plants.

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Dharma Flower » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:52 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Humans are not "naturally" anything when it comes to diet.
The article presents multiple evidences that we are evolutionarily adapted to an omnivorous diet.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016 ... omnivores/

The human body also requires nutrients that come from both animal and plant sources, unless one is able to supplement their diet, an option that many people in the world don’t have.

The most important advice that could be given to someone on a vegetarian diet is to supplement their diet with enough protein, B12, iron, and other nutrients that otherwise traditionally come from animal sources.

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Dharma Flower » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:29 pm
Saturated fats are not a problem as long as one eats a diet low in carbohydrates (simple and complex) since the saturated fats are then broken down by the body for use in energy production.
The medical trend in the past thirty years or so has been to encourage lean meat over red meat, if one chooses to eat meat. The reason being that saturated fat consumption is linked to heart disease.
https://healthyforgood.heart.org/eat-sm ... rated-fats

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:30 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:52 pm
The human body also requires nutrients that come from both animal and plant sources...
Name me a nutrient that one cannot get from a vegetable source.
The most important advice that could be given to someone on a vegetarian diet is to supplement their diet with enough protein, B12, iron, and other nutrients that otherwise traditionally come from animal sources.
What do you mean "traditionally"? It seems that "traditionally", the majority of people did not eat large quantities of meat and got most of their protein from plant sources (especially pulses) and their B12 from fermented foods.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Dharma Flower » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:43 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:30 pm
Name me a nutrient that one cannot get from a vegetable source.
B12, if I'm not mistaken. This is why vegans and vegetarians are recommended to supplement for B12. Studies have also shown that vegans are more likely to have bone fractures, due to a lack of calcium in the diet.

The point is that those on a plant-based diet need to supplement for nutrients that are traditionally obtained through animal sources, an option that many people in the third world don't have.

In the first world, we are able to be healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet, if we supplement for certain nutrients.

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:52 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:43 pm
B12, if I'm not mistaken. This is why vegans and vegetarians are recommended to supplement for B12. Studies have also shown that vegans are more likely to have bone fractures, due to a lack of calcium in the diet.
You are completely mistaken on both counts.
The point is that those on a plant-based diet need to supplement for nutrients that are traditionally obtained through animal sources...
No they don't. And, in closing, people that eat a heavily meat based diet need to supplement with vitamins and minerals too. Vitamins and minerals that are found in much larger (or more easily absorbed) doses in plant products.
In the first world, we are able to be healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet, if we supplement for certain nutrients.
No. In the first world we can be healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet because we have access to the range of foods necessary for our health. It has got nothing to do with supplements.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Miroku » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:22 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:43 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:30 pm
Name me a nutrient that one cannot get from a vegetable source.
B12, if I'm not mistaken. This is why vegans and vegetarians are recommended to supplement for B12. Studies have also shown that vegans are more likely to have bone fractures, due to a lack of calcium in the diet.

The point is that those on a plant-based diet need to supplement for nutrients that are traditionally obtained through animal sources, an option that many people in the third world don't have.

In the first world, we are able to be healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet, if we supplement for certain nutrients.
You can get B12 out of yogurt, cheese and also milk, so vegetarians should be pretty much okay. Vegans not sure really, but there are many cultures where vegetarianism is traditionaly practiced on a bigger scale and it seems that they are okay, so at least vegetarianism should be okay for people.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by seeker242 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:29 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:43 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:30 pm
Name me a nutrient that one cannot get from a vegetable source.
B12, if I'm not mistaken. This is why vegans and vegetarians are recommended to supplement for B12. Studies have also shown that vegans are more likely to have bone fractures, due to a lack of calcium in the diet.

The point is that those on a plant-based diet need to supplement for nutrients that are traditionally obtained through animal sources, an option that many people in the third world don't have.

In the first world, we are able to be healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet, if we supplement for certain nutrients.
The only thing that is essential to supplement is B12 for vegans. Vegetarians don't need to supplement anything. This is assuming a properly balanced whole foods diet, not a bunch of junk and processed food. Modern medicine recommends that everyone over age 50, regardless of diet, supplement B12. Most everyone would do well to supplement vitamin D as most people, regardless of diet, have low vitamin D levels unless they spend a lot of time out in the sun. Nobody needs to supplement protein, iron, and other nutrients when they are eating appropriately. No vegan or vegetarian diet is inherently deficient in anything other than B12 for vegans. Vegetarianism originated thousands of years ago and people have been just fine since then without supplements.

A good overview can be found here from the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, which is the world's largest organization of food and nutrition professionals.

Vegetarian Diets
Volume 116, Issue 12, Pages 1970-1980 (December 2016)
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood and for athletes.
https://www.eatrightpro.org/practice/po ... rian-diets
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Bristollad » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:59 am

Advice from The Vegan Society concerning B12:

https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/ ... itamin-b12

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:34 am

Bristollad wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:59 am
Advice from The Vegan Society concerning B12:

https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/ ... itamin-b12
Strange that they don't mention yeast based products at all, as sources of B12.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by seeker242 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:08 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:34 am
Bristollad wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:59 am
Advice from The Vegan Society concerning B12:

https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/ ... itamin-b12
Strange that they don't mention yeast based products at all, as sources of B12.
That's included within fortified foods. The link in the first paragraph "'Vitamin B12 : your key facts' mentions them. But if one is going to rely on yeast products, one should make sure they are fortified or supplemented with it as yeast products don't naturally contain B12. Most nutritional yeast these days is fortified, but some of it isn't.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Cianan » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:41 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:29 pm
Saturated fats are not a problem as long as one eats a diet low in carbohydrates (simple and complex) since the saturated fats are then broken down by the body for use in energy production.
The medical trend in the past thirty years or so has been to encourage lean meat over red meat, if one chooses to eat meat. The reason being that saturated fat consumption is linked to heart disease.
https://healthyforgood.heart.org/eat-sm ... rated-fats
A meta-analysis published in 2010, which pooled data from 21 studies and included nearly 348,000 adults, found no difference in the risks of heart disease and stroke between people with the lowest and highest intakes of saturated fat. Another 2010 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that a reduction in saturated fat intake must be evaluated in the context of replacement by other macronutrients, such as carbohydrates. When you replace saturated fat with a higher carbohydrate intake, particularly refined carbohydrate, you exacerbate insulin resistance and obesity, increase triglycerides and small LDL particles, and reduce beneficial HDL cholesterol. These studies also couldn't link saturated fat consumption with heart disease: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

There is, however, demonstration of a link between greater carbohydrate consumption and increased risk of heart disease. I've eaten a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol for years while avoiding refined carbohydrates (sweet potatoes and rice are a regular part of my diet), and my risk for heart disease is astonishingly low.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Mantrik » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:05 pm

Cianan wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:41 pm
Dharma Flower wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:29 pm
Saturated fats are not a problem as long as one eats a diet low in carbohydrates (simple and complex) since the saturated fats are then broken down by the body for use in energy production.
The medical trend in the past thirty years or so has been to encourage lean meat over red meat, if one chooses to eat meat. The reason being that saturated fat consumption is linked to heart disease.
https://healthyforgood.heart.org/eat-sm ... rated-fats
A meta-analysis published in 2010, which pooled data from 21 studies and included nearly 348,000 adults, found no difference in the risks of heart disease and stroke between people with the lowest and highest intakes of saturated fat. Another 2010 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that a reduction in saturated fat intake must be evaluated in the context of replacement by other macronutrients, such as carbohydrates. When you replace saturated fat with a higher carbohydrate intake, particularly refined carbohydrate, you exacerbate insulin resistance and obesity, increase triglycerides and small LDL particles, and reduce beneficial HDL cholesterol. These studies also couldn't link saturated fat consumption with heart disease: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

There is, however, demonstration of a link between greater carbohydrate consumption and increased risk of heart disease. I've eaten a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol for years while avoiding refined carbohydrates (sweet potatoes and rice in moderation are a regular part of my diet), and my risk for heart disease is astonishingly low.
Cholesterol is produced in the body as well as ingested. There are people for whom a diet high in saturated fat creates dangerously high levels of 'bad' LDL cholesterol as their levels are already high. I know one, for example, who has experienced all 8 of her family members die through precisely that cause, before the advent of statins. They wouldn't listen to advice, but I'm sure they would have loved attractive generalisations such as that above. Anyone can amass data from small studies and compile it to make it look as if it is statistically significant, and any study can be tweaked if the sugar industry us bunging dollars at it.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Cianan » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:11 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:05 pm
Cianan wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:41 pm
Dharma Flower wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:56 pm


The medical trend in the past thirty years or so has been to encourage lean meat over red meat, if one chooses to eat meat. The reason being that saturated fat consumption is linked to heart disease.
https://healthyforgood.heart.org/eat-sm ... rated-fats
A meta-analysis published in 2010, which pooled data from 21 studies and included nearly 348,000 adults, found no difference in the risks of heart disease and stroke between people with the lowest and highest intakes of saturated fat. Another 2010 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that a reduction in saturated fat intake must be evaluated in the context of replacement by other macronutrients, such as carbohydrates. When you replace saturated fat with a higher carbohydrate intake, particularly refined carbohydrate, you exacerbate insulin resistance and obesity, increase triglycerides and small LDL particles, and reduce beneficial HDL cholesterol. These studies also couldn't link saturated fat consumption with heart disease: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

There is, however, demonstration of a link between greater carbohydrate consumption and increased risk of heart disease. I've eaten a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol for years while avoiding refined carbohydrates (sweet potatoes and rice in moderation are a regular part of my diet), and my risk for heart disease is astonishingly low.
Cholesterol is produced in the body as well as ingested. There are people for whom a diet high in saturated fat creates dangerously high levels of 'bad' LDL cholesterol as their levels are already high. I know one, for example, who has all 8 of her family members die through precisely that cause, before the advent of statins. They wouldn't listen to advice, but I'm sure they would have loved attractive generalisations such as that above.
There is a difference between consuming oxidized cholesterol and that which is unoxidized. Any generalization about cholesterol consumption, such as yours, isn't taking into account why arterial plaque forms.

There is an excellent research on animals where they fed animals plenty of cholesterol in their diet and they did just fine. But when they gave them even small amounts of tainted cholesterol, meaning oxidized cholesterol, within weeks it showed up in fatty streaks in their arteries. There are receptors in the endothelial cells that are the lining of your arteries. There are receptors there for oxidized cholesterol. It picks it up, and it goes into the endothelial cells. The problem is that oxidized cholesterol does not look native to your macrophages, your immune system. It actually looks like bacteria. The macrophages move in to try and clean up what it thinks is bacteria, which is nothing more than oxidized cholesterol, and it creates a whole bunch of inflammation inside your arterial wall. The real culprit is oxidized cholesterol.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Mantrik » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:02 pm

Cianan wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:11 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:05 pm
Cianan wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:41 pm


A meta-analysis published in 2010, which pooled data from 21 studies and included nearly 348,000 adults, found no difference in the risks of heart disease and stroke between people with the lowest and highest intakes of saturated fat. Another 2010 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that a reduction in saturated fat intake must be evaluated in the context of replacement by other macronutrients, such as carbohydrates. When you replace saturated fat with a higher carbohydrate intake, particularly refined carbohydrate, you exacerbate insulin resistance and obesity, increase triglycerides and small LDL particles, and reduce beneficial HDL cholesterol. These studies also couldn't link saturated fat consumption with heart disease: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

There is, however, demonstration of a link between greater carbohydrate consumption and increased risk of heart disease. I've eaten a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol for years while avoiding refined carbohydrates (sweet potatoes and rice in moderation are a regular part of my diet), and my risk for heart disease is astonishingly low.
Cholesterol is produced in the body as well as ingested. There are people for whom a diet high in saturated fat creates dangerously high levels of 'bad' LDL cholesterol as their levels are already high. I know one, for example, who has all 8 of her family members die through precisely that cause, before the advent of statins. They wouldn't listen to advice, but I'm sure they would have loved attractive generalisations such as that above.
There is a difference between consuming oxidized cholesterol and that which is unoxidized. Any generalization about cholesterol consumption, such as yours, isn't taking into account why arterial plaque forms.
Actually it is. Oxidised fats are far and away the form in which people consume them, and still do, using statins to minimise the perceived damage. The body also has its own oxidation process.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Cianan » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:14 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:02 pm
Cianan wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:11 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:05 pm


Cholesterol is produced in the body as well as ingested. There are people for whom a diet high in saturated fat creates dangerously high levels of 'bad' LDL cholesterol as their levels are already high. I know one, for example, who has all 8 of her family members die through precisely that cause, before the advent of statins. They wouldn't listen to advice, but I'm sure they would have loved attractive generalisations such as that above.
There is a difference between consuming oxidized cholesterol and that which is unoxidized. Any generalization about cholesterol consumption, such as yours, isn't taking into account why arterial plaque forms.
Actually it is. Oxidised fats are far and away the form in which people consume them, and still do, using statins to minimise the perceived damage. The body also has its own oxidation process.
You're right that people eat a lot of oxidized fat and cholesterol. It doesn't take it into account, however, because people aren't aware of how important the oxidation of fats is. Since when does official dietary advice make this distinction for people? Using the right oils and preparing food mindfully either minimizes this or averts it altogether. Eggs are a good example of how easy it can be to avoid eating your cholesterol oxidized.

In light of how prominent anti-fat sentiment is and how research continually undermines conventional dietary wisdom, someone needs to speak up about it. Statins have a number of undesirable effects, and people would be doing much better to seek out a therapeutic diet to achieve the desired results long-term.

A big component of why people are so frequently at risk of heart disease is simply the overabundance of carbohydrates, especially those that are refined. According to the accredited study I just linked to, people would actually be at a lower risk of heart disease if they were actively replacing carbs with saturated fat, and I'm not too sure how many people know that. Think of how normal it is for someone to eat refined carbs throughout the day. Processed foods, moreover, are a rich source of not only refined carbs but rancid, oxidized fats. People mostly don't realize what ordinary foods in the brave new world are doing to them. This is
a recipe for disastrous health consequences that is simply attributed to a scapegoat or two.
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Re: Vegetarian Diet Recommendations

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:52 am

The title of this thread is "Vegetarian Diet Recommendations" not "Low fat vs high fat meat eating diets".

Let's get back to the topic people.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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