Circumcision

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Mantrik
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:07 pm

MGM
Male Genital Mutilation

MGM performed on boys should betreated the same as FGM on girls and should be subject to criminal prosecution of parents and those performing it.

There are some very rare medical exceptions where it is needed, but 'hygiene' is a ridiculous reason, as is any supposed sexual performance benefit.

If an adult wants to chop off the end of his dick that's fine, of course. Some men may well benefit from being less of a dickhead.
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topazdreamz
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Re: Circumcision

Post by topazdreamz » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:09 pm

Here is what I recommend to any circumcised man who wants to understand the function of the foreskin.

1. Keep your glans covered with medical tape for about 2 weeks. You can remove it during showers, sexual activity, and urination, but other than that, keep it covered. You will discover that it becomes 1000+% more sexually sensitive.

2. Play with an intact penis (with consent!) to understand the mechanical function. Or, at least watch up-close videos of intact men pleasuring themselves.

Most US doctors have no idea what a foreskin is for. We need to educate ourselves. If you do 1 & 2, you will have no doubt about the biological function of the foreskin.

The "cleanliness" logic is like saying we should cut off our baby's ears so they never have to wash behind their ears.

And the health argument is a sham, as the health concerns are simply not large enough risks to justify genital mutilation of an entire civilization.
Last edited by topazdreamz on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Circumcision

Post by topazdreamz » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:20 pm

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:45 am
One medical reason can be in premature births, when the skin isn't totally separated.
All boys are born with the foreskin fused to the glans. It doesn't separate fully until years later. Ignorance of this causes parents and doctors to forcibly retract the foreskin, which causes scarring and phimosis.

https://www.yourwholebaby.org/forced-retraction/

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Circumcision

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:09 pm

topazdreamz wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:09 pm
Play with an intact penis (with consent!) to understand the mechanical function. Or, at least watch up-close videos of intact men pleasuring themselves.

Are there any videos that you particularly recommend?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Queequeg » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:15 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:07 pm
MGM
Male Genital Mutilation

MGM performed on boys should betreated the same as FGM on girls and should be subject to criminal prosecution of parents and those performing it.
While I sympathize, it's problematic to compare removing foreskin to removing the clitoris. Too many exaggerated comparisons going on. Contributes to the general decline in articulate thought, imho. Also bad form to claim a condition that affects men is equal in severity to a condition affecting women when it's not.

Consensus is that the arguments for circumcision are suspect in the least. Wouldn't be the first time the medical community got something wrong.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
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Queequeg
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Queequeg » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:16 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:09 pm
topazdreamz wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:09 pm
Play with an intact penis (with consent!) to understand the mechanical function. Or, at least watch up-close videos of intact men pleasuring themselves.

Are there any videos that you particularly recommend?
Please, no.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Mantrik
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:55 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:15 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:07 pm
MGM
Male Genital Mutilation

MGM performed on boys should be treated the same as FGM on girls and should be subject to criminal prosecution of parents and those performing it.
While I sympathize, it's problematic to compare removing foreskin to removing the clitoris. Too many exaggerated comparisons going on. Contributes to the general decline in articulate thought, imho. Also bad form to claim a condition that affects men is equal in severity to a condition affecting women when it's not.

Consensus is that the arguments for circumcision are suspect in the least. Wouldn't be the first time the medical community got something wrong.
I didn't claim the operation was as bad, nor that the severity of any condition was equal. You invented that. I made no exaggerated comparison at all.

Unnecessary and painful surgery on children of either gender is equally wrong - that was my point. As it stands you can't tattoo a child in the UK but you can slice off part of their penis. Cultural values are often skewed, inconsistent and cruel towards those who cannot object, whether than be young children or animals being treated inhumanely because of some archaic religious norm.

It is time human rights legislation was used to prevent all unnecessary surgical acts being performed on children, whether based on some religious or cultural pretext, or becuase some moron thinks their baby girl should have her ears pierced to supposedly beautify them.

As you have shown, it is easy to start making comparisons about the level of damage and pain, and even use as justification, so I prefer to simply ban all such acts until the child is 18.

(Some think 16 is adult these days, but my own observation is that people are now actually maturing emotionally at a later age than in the past in the UK.)
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Queequeg
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Queequeg » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:07 pm

should be treated the same
I guess I misread. It would seem to me that differences of severity ought to be treated differently, but I see your point that any procedure on minors should be prohibited. That was not clear.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:09 pm

topazdreamz wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:20 pm
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:45 am
One medical reason can be in premature births, when the skin isn't totally separated.
All boys are born with the foreskin fused to the glans. It doesn't separate fully until years later. Ignorance of this causes parents and doctors to forcibly retract the foreskin, which causes scarring and phimosis.

https://www.yourwholebaby.org/forced-retraction/
I was speaking in reference to the foreskin not being totally separated from the stomach
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ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

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Mantrik
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:40 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:07 pm
should be treated the same
I guess I misread. It would seem to me that differences of severity ought to be treated differently, but I see your point that any procedure on minors should be prohibited. That was not clear.
Yes, I should have been clearer that I meant treated as equal in the eyes of the law, banned. Apologies.

I certainly would not compare the physical and emotional consequences of FGM butchery with those of circumcision. But both should be banned.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

DGA
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Re: Circumcision

Post by DGA » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:35 pm

I don't see any arguments grounded in Dharma in favor of circumcision.

This is the only argument grounded in science that I could find, and it's rather limited in scope and applicability.
There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence.

Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes: the provision of HIV testing and counseling services; treatment for sexually transmitted infections; the promotion of safer sex practices; the provision of male and female condoms and promotion of their correct and consistent use.
http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

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Minobu
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Minobu » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:10 pm

although i'm a male and am not turned on by the look of a penis...i can stare at vaginas all day though....weird huh! :shrug: i wonder why....i think the uncut variety looks like a pastry bag..the whole droopy thing...do women or gay men find it attractive? or are cut ones more fun to look at?

I think it is there , the foreskin , for a reason.
maybe it keeps certain areas more sensitive when needed in arousal...
cutting the foreskin off would cause a certain sensitive area to become less sensitive due to constant contact...
i dunno...

the whole thing involves our procreation...yes /no...does nature prefer the pastry bag droopy look? makes you wonder 'bout mother nature and her likes and dislikes...or did she inspire someone to cut it off ...

:popcorn:

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Re: Circumcision

Post by SunWuKong » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:41 am

Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:48 am
warning age restricted video

"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: Circumcision

Post by SunWuKong » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:44 am

Minobu wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:10 pm
although i'm a male and am not turned on by the look of a penis...i can stare at vaginas all day though....weird huh! :shrug: i wonder why....i think the uncut variety looks like a pastry bag..the whole droopy thing...do women or gay men find it attractive? or are cut ones more fun to look at?

I think it is there , the foreskin , for a reason.
maybe it keeps certain areas more sensitive when needed in arousal...
cutting the foreskin off would cause a certain sensitive area to become less sensitive due to constant contact...
i dunno...

the whole thing involves our procreation...yes /no...does nature prefer the pastry bag droopy look? makes you wonder 'bout mother nature and her likes and dislikes...or did she inspire someone to cut it off ...

:popcorn:
Unless you guru gives you orders, don't frak with Mother Nature

:yinyang:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: Circumcision

Post by SunWuKong » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:47 am

actually i didn't mean to type "frak"
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

Tenma
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Tenma » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:51 am

Virgo wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:37 am


Kevin...
Didn't know the Filipinos did this, huh. Unfortunately, in Korea, they still continue this practice during the worst time of a boy's life, high school(or college).

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Brunelleschi
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Brunelleschi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:19 pm

DGA wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:51 am
All the rationales for this practice that I have been exposed to are cultural and not scientific (specifically, references to Biblical or Quranic tradition). I find those arguments completely unconvincing. [Pro tip: ask your local preacher if God the Father is himself circumcised. I'm glad I did.]

Are there any scientific arguments in favor of circumcision, or medical circumstances in which this practice is indicated? Any instance of this practice turning up in, say, Tibetan Medicine or any other Dharma tradition or healing tradition outside of the Abrahamic cultural milieu?
Since according to Abrahamic traditions God has neither a gender or a body I doubt it. :shrug:

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Re: Circumcision

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:49 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:04 pm
The reasons I've heard:

Hygenic. There aren't folds where bacteria and gunk can build up. I believe it also increases chance of STD transmission, giving and receiving.

I suppose it's cultural, but aesthetic preference. I run in circles with many Jews, including my wife. Preference is generally for circumcision. Also, I've heard remarks about smell. I wouldn't know about this.

I was against my son being circumcised. Wife was insistent.

The kid did scream when the doctor snipped him. What a way to be welcomed I to the world. :(
There's a growing number of non-Orthodox Jews who aren't down for it....or at least, don't see it as vital int he way someone who syas they are Frum would. My wife (also Jewish) actually voted not to circumcise our son.
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Tenma
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Tenma » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:37 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:49 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:04 pm
The reasons I've heard:

Hygenic. There aren't folds where bacteria and gunk can build up. I believe it also increases chance of STD transmission, giving and receiving.

I suppose it's cultural, but aesthetic preference. I run in circles with many Jews, including my wife. Preference is generally for circumcision. Also, I've heard remarks about smell. I wouldn't know about this.

I was against my son being circumcised. Wife was insistent.

The kid did scream when the doctor snipped him. What a way to be welcomed I to the world. :(
There's a growing number of non-Orthodox Jews who aren't down for it....or at least, don't see it as vital int he way someone who syas they are Frum would. My wife (also Jewish) actually voted not to circumcise our son.
What a lucky boy!

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weitsicht
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Re: Circumcision

Post by weitsicht » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:07 am

From what I read and heard, also privately confirmed by mothers concerned with that question, is that

mothers wish their sons to be able to present a dick as attractive as their husband's to their (future) spouses (and mother of their grandchildren). A circumcised penis is supposed to look a little more erigated in the normal state. So it's a question of (subconscious / darwinian?) competitivenes.

The history may be Dr. Kellogg, but in present days I guess the mothers have more say about their newborn sons than the dads.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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