Circumcision

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Bristollad
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Bristollad » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:27 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:07 am
From what I read and heard, also privately confirmed by mothers concerned with that question, is that

mothers wish their sons to be able to present a dick as attractive as their husband's to their (future) spouses (and mother of their grandchildren). A circumcised penis is supposed to look a little more erigated in the normal state. So it's a question of (subconscious / darwinian?) competitivenes.

The history may be Dr. Kellogg, but in present days I guess the mothers have more say about their newborn sons than the dads.
Away from Abrahamic traditions maintained in Judaism and Islam, it seems to be a social convention pretty much restricted to North America. Just as I'm not in favour of piercings or tattoos, I personally don't understand why some think its necessary or more attractive. As an adult choice, it's up to them but I would suggest such surgery should not be done on children.

Lucalina
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Lucalina » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:08 pm

The most often cited reason is hygiene, however, an uncircumcised male has exactly the same hygiene issues a female would; they have to wipe after urination, as well as clean under the foreskin in the shower.
There have been quite a few complications to come from circumcision, such as painful erection, decreased sensitivity from pleasure, calluses, and premature ejaculation.

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Re: Circumcision

Post by DGA » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:52 am

Brunelleschi wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:19 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:51 am
All the rationales for this practice that I have been exposed to are cultural and not scientific (specifically, references to Biblical or Quranic tradition). I find those arguments completely unconvincing. [Pro tip: ask your local preacher if God the Father is himself circumcised. I'm glad I did.]

Are there any scientific arguments in favor of circumcision, or medical circumstances in which this practice is indicated? Any instance of this practice turning up in, say, Tibetan Medicine or any other Dharma tradition or healing tradition outside of the Abrahamic cultural milieu?
Since according to Abrahamic traditions God has neither a gender or a body I doubt it. :shrug:
Doubt what?

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Brunelleschi
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Brunelleschi » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:49 pm

DGA wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:52 am
Brunelleschi wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:19 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:51 am
All the rationales for this practice that I have been exposed to are cultural and not scientific (specifically, references to Biblical or Quranic tradition). I find those arguments completely unconvincing. [Pro tip: ask your local preacher if God the Father is himself circumcised. I'm glad I did.]

Are there any scientific arguments in favor of circumcision, or medical circumstances in which this practice is indicated? Any instance of this practice turning up in, say, Tibetan Medicine or any other Dharma tradition or healing tradition outside of the Abrahamic cultural milieu?
Since according to Abrahamic traditions God has neither a gender or a body I doubt it. :shrug:
Doubt what?
This: Pro tip: ask your local preacher if God the Father is himself circumcised. I'm glad I did.

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DNS
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Re: Circumcision

Post by DNS » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:35 pm

Brunelleschi wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:49 pm
This: Pro tip: ask your local preacher if God the Father is himself circumcised. I'm glad I did.
If we all asked our local preacher, we might get 1,000 different answers, depending on the denomination and the level of apologetics of that sect.

Some see God as impersonal, others take the literal word of the Bible. Some denominations are creationists, some accept evolution, and some take varying stances trying to adopt both (intelligent design). If we go by the literal word of the bible, Jesus was circumcised:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce

Jesus is part of the Trinity of the God-head of Christianity.

According to Genesis, man is created in God's image. Therefore, the personal-anthropomorphic looking God looks like a human man (according to Genesis). Since circumcision is done after the male baby is born, we could assume that the "Father" is not circumcised. However, Jesus was circumcised, so not sure if we could say the Trinity is circumcised or not.

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Brunelleschi
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Brunelleschi » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:49 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:35 pm
Brunelleschi wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:49 pm
This: Pro tip: ask your local preacher if God the Father is himself circumcised. I'm glad I did.
If we all asked our local preacher, we might get 1,000 different answers, depending on the denomination and the level of apologetics of that sect.

Some see God as impersonal, others take the literal word of the Bible. Some denominations are creationists, some accept evolution, and some take varying stances trying to adopt both (intelligent design). If we go by the literal word of the bible, Jesus was circumcised:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce

Jesus is part of the Trinity of the God-head of Christianity.

According to Genesis, man is created in God's image. Therefore, the personal-anthropomorphic looking God looks like a human man (according to Genesis). Since circumcision is done after the male baby is born, we could assume that the "Father" is not circumcised. However, Jesus was circumcised, so not sure if we could say the Trinity is circumcised or not.
Ok. I'm not very knowledgable about Christianity and the ins-and-outs of the Trinity. However it was my view that God is seen as being without body or gender. From my understanding this is generally the position taken in Judaism. In regards to Islam, God is definitely seen as not having a gender nor a body (see the concept of Tawhid/Tawheed).

As a sidenote: I don't really think the fact there are differing opinions matter. There are always different opinions on any matter - but some are more correct than others. Interpretations have to be done by knowledgable scholars. Literal interpretation of the Bible is a relative new phenomenon and (as I understand it) totally incorrect.

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PSM
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Re: Circumcision

Post by PSM » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:25 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:07 am
The history may be Dr. Kellogg, but in present days I guess the mothers have more say about their newborn sons than the dads.
Dr Kellogg was nuts. It's educational to look up what he recommended carbolic acid for.

And that's the kind of pathological thinking behind circumcision.
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Simon E.
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:52 pm

A while ago on Esangha there was an impassioned plea for new dads to have their sons circumcised because it would lead to fewer cases of cervical cancer.
This was from a young woman who seemed keen to have us all clipped in the nethers.
The furnishing of actual facts like the fact that the incidence of cervical cancer is lower in those countries , like most of northern Europe including the UK where circumcision is less uncommon than the US, were brushed aside. :smile:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Mantrik
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm

I think Adam was created uncircumcised. The whole idea came from Eve who got pissed off with him one day and decided that she'd eat the apple, then got Adam drunk and decided to make him look like the snake just for fun while he was passed out on the grass, man. Amazing what teeth can detach, and a couple of apple pips as eyes made a fine decoration for the little chap. He then became awakened and opened a piercing salon called Eden's Needle.
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Virgo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:59 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm
He then became awakened and opened a piercing salon called Eden's Needle.
I think it was she who roused him.

Kevni...

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Mantrik
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:59 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm
He then became awakened and opened a piercing salon called Eden's Needle.
I think it was she who roused him.

Kevni...
Fist time a woman ever got a man into trouble and then pricked his conscience.

It would be intersting to know when it was that God changed his mind and started asking that boys should be chopped.
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Virgo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:13 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 pm

Fist time a woman ever got a man into trouble and then pricked his conscience.

It would be intersting to know when it was that God changed his mind and started asking that boys should be chopped.
:rolling:

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Re: Circumcision

Post by DNS » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:48 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 pm
It would be intersting to know when it was that God changed his mind and started asking that boys should be chopped.
It was not until Genesis, chapter 17. Apparently, that implies that there was no circumcision prior to that. So based on that, we can infer that Adam and Noah and their descendants were not circumcised. It all started with Abraham, when God made a covenant with Abraham with the circumcision as the ceremonial part.

According to the passage, any male who is not circumcised must get deported from the land, the people. Somehow I doubt this is enforced in Israel today, though.
Gen. 17:10 wrote: This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.

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Mantrik
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:57 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:48 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 pm
It would be intersting to know when it was that God changed his mind and started asking that boys should be chopped.
It was not until Genesis, chapter 17. Apparently, that implies that there was no circumcision prior to that. So based on that, we can infer that Adam and Noah and their descendants were not circumcised. It all started with Abraham, when God made a covenant with Abraham with the circumcision as the ceremonial part.

According to the passage, any male who is not circumcised must get deported from the land, the people. Somehow I doubt this is enforced in Israel today, though.
Gen. 17:10 wrote: This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.
That's really useful. It does reinforce the idea that what is 'unclean' is tied to have a religious or cultural basis rather than being discovered to be unhealthy. Of course, when challenged, inventing medical justification is a plausible response.

Initially, perhaps it was a method of indentifying your own (circumcised) people from undesirable foreigners and enemies.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

PeterC
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Re: Circumcision

Post by PeterC » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:20 am

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:57 pm
DNS wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:48 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 pm
It would be intersting to know when it was that God changed his mind and started asking that boys should be chopped.
It was not until Genesis, chapter 17. Apparently, that implies that there was no circumcision prior to that. So based on that, we can infer that Adam and Noah and their descendants were not circumcised. It all started with Abraham, when God made a covenant with Abraham with the circumcision as the ceremonial part.

According to the passage, any male who is not circumcised must get deported from the land, the people. Somehow I doubt this is enforced in Israel today, though.
Gen. 17:10 wrote: This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.
That's really useful. It does reinforce the idea that what is 'unclean' is tied to have a religious or cultural basis rather than being discovered to be unhealthy. Of course, when challenged, inventing medical justification is a plausible response.

Initially, perhaps it was a method of indentifying your own (circumcised) people from undesirable foreigners and enemies.
I believe there are forms of circumcision that predate the biblical covenant - as you would expect, the practice wouldn't just have appeared from nowhere in a specific semitic tribe. There's a fairly extensive description of some tribal practices in Wilfred Thesiger's Arabian Sands that are pretty horrifying - they involve a lot more than just the excision of a small piece of skin.

kausalya
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Re: Circumcision

Post by kausalya » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:47 pm

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

DGA
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Re: Circumcision

Post by DGA » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:14 pm

Brunelleschi wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:49 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:52 am
Brunelleschi wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:19 pm

Since according to Abrahamic traditions God has neither a gender or a body I doubt it. :shrug:
Doubt what?
This: Pro tip: ask your local preacher if God the Father is himself circumcised. I'm glad I did.
That was a joke. I didn't really ask any local preacher about the dimensions of God's penis, but I thought about it.

To your point, I'm not convinced there's any consensus at all regarding the question of whether God has a body or a gender among Abrahamic traditions. Anecdotal evidence of this point:

https://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/ ... rcumcised/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Mormonism

Speaking only from my own admittedly limited experience, getting adherents of the many and various Abrahamic faiths and sects to hold any consensus on God and his attributes is like trying to get a committee of European intellectuals to agree on what Europe is.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Circumcision

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:21 pm

DGA wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:14 pm
To your point, I'm not convinced there's any consensus at all regarding the question of whether God has a body or a gender among Abrahamic traditions. Anecdotal evidence of this point:

https://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/ ... rcumcised/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Mormonism

Speaking only from my own admittedly limited experience, getting adherents of the many and various Abrahamic faiths and sects to hold any consensus on God and his attributes is like trying to get a committee of European intellectuals to agree on what Europe is.
"God in Mormonism"

Do you consider Mormonism Abrahamic?

If Mormons are Abrahamic, then Wat Dhammakāya practices Theravāda Buddhism.
http://www.undv.org/vesak2012/iabudoc/2 ... hFINAL.pdf
佛子。如來智慧。無相智慧。無閡智慧。具足在於眾生身中。但愚癡眾生顛倒想覆。不知不見不生信心。
O, sons and daughters. The Thus-Gone's wisdom. The signless wisdom. The unobstructed wisdom. It perfectly dwells within all sentient beings’ minds. Yet in ignorance, sentient beings err and think it covered. Not knowing, not seeing, not giving rise to faith.
Āryamaitreyanāthasyottarekayānaratnagotraśāstra T1611.827b20

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