Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

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MiphamFan
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Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am

Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.

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Malcolm
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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:45 am

Yes
MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am
Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:45 am
Yes
MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am
Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.
Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In

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Aryjna
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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Aryjna » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:34 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:45 am
Yes
MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am
Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.
Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In
Someone needs to tell the guys in the video to keep their feet on the ground instead of squatting on their toes.

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:42 am

I went to skim Singleton's book on the history of yoga, which has some passages on the modern origins of suryanamskara.

He cited a 1936 book, Fakirs et Yogis des Indes, by De Maitre, which mentioned that pilgrims used to perform dands on pilgrimages. This is of course very reminiscent of how Tibetan pilgrims do the same with prostrations. Interesting, I wonder if people still do this in modern India.

EDIT

I found this old book by the Rajah of Aundh, one of the pioneers of Surayanamaskara on Scribd:



In chapter X, he talks about how he actually modified the procedure he originally learned to something resembling the modern version. He modified the movement to have "more strain" on the abdomen, the legs, the waist etc.

At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker, one thing about modern sun salutations that does scare me is hyper-extending the back in a lot of the positions. However, the diagrams in all these old books actually don't really have that.

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:06 am

I found more info about the Hindu prostrations.

They are called Sashstanga danda pradakshina. This article about pilgrimages to Mount Kailash contrasts Tibetan practice of prostrations with Hindu non-practice in modern times: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... 14_214-231

They are kinda in between Tibetan prostrations and the suryanamaskara variations. When you go down on the floor, you still do so from a squat position, putting your legs back one by one, rather than kneel and "roll forward" like Tibetan long prostrations, but you lie flat on the ground at the very bottom, unlike the suryanamaskaras.

Here's a video



I think the "old" Suryanamaskaras without the hyperextensions are probably the healthiest. So basically take a modern Surayanamaskara, but don't do those hyperextension warrior poses.

I tried the Rajah of Aundh's method above and found it pretty smooth, there is no "warrior pose" etc, no hyperextension, but I guess peoplke should still be careful if they feel any strain.

I find the rhetoric about prostrations in some Tibetan Buddhist communities a bit masochistic, I prefer to err on the side of caution with regards to one's health.

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:53 am

these are some of my favorite prostrations.
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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by TharpaChodron » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:51 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:45 am
Yes
MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am
Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.
Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In
umm what did I just watch? With that Midnight Express soundtrack too? :shock:

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:43 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:51 pm
umm what did I just watch? With that Midnight Express soundtrack too? :shock:
And you got to see the guys tackle at the beginning of the video! Bonus!!! :smile:
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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:27 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:51 pm
MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:45 am
Yes

Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In
umm what did I just watch? With that Midnight Express soundtrack too? :shock:
lol

Yeah, the editing doesn't make it very good to learn the rhythm of the exercise from.

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:04 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:27 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:51 pm
MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am

Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In
umm what did I just watch? With that Midnight Express soundtrack too? :shock:
lol

Yeah, the editing doesn't make it very good to learn the rhythm of the exercise from.
well I got the rhythm of the exercise pretty well. :tongue:

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by DGA » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:09 am

I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am

DGA wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:09 am
I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:

I noticed it too. :sage:

:spy:
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by justsit » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:08 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am
DGA wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:09 am
I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
In some circles? Very. :smile:

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Malcolm
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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:45 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?
IMO, it is a very good way to protect your back, knees and do prostrations.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by DGA » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am
DGA wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:09 am
I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
I'm a 0 on the Kinsey scale and I've known about Tom of Finland since I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. My mom introduced me to it. She was a character. Today is her birthday, oddly enough.

:offtopic:

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:56 pm

DGA wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am
DGA wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:09 am
I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
I'm a 0 on the Kinsey scale and I've known about Tom of Finland since I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. My mom introduced me to it. She was a character. Today is her birthday, oddly enough.

:offtopic:
Why so defensive?

Did you think I was calling you a homosexual?
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:00 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:56 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
I'm a 0 on the Kinsey scale and I've known about Tom of Finland since I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. My mom introduced me to it. She was a character. Today is her birthday, oddly enough.

:offtopic:
Why so defensive?

Did you think I was calling you a homosexual?
Enough, this thread is about sun salutations.

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by DGA » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:17 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:56 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
I'm a 0 on the Kinsey scale and I've known about Tom of Finland since I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. My mom introduced me to it. She was a character. Today is her birthday, oddly enough.

:offtopic:
Why so defensive?

Did you think I was calling you a homosexual?
:rolling:

This is good DharmaWheel.

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Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by DGA » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:28 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:00 am
Enough, this thread is about sun salutations.
Aren't you the one who posted this fabulous video?
MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am
I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:


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