Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

A place to discuss health and fitness, including healthy diets, etc.
MiphamFan
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan »

Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Malcolm »

Yes
MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.
MiphamFan
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:45 am Yes
MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.
Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Aryjna »

MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:45 am Yes
MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.
Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In
Someone needs to tell the guys in the video to keep their feet on the ground instead of squatting on their toes.
MiphamFan
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan »

I went to skim Singleton's book on the history of yoga, which has some passages on the modern origins of suryanamskara.

He cited a 1936 book, Fakirs et Yogis des Indes, by De Maitre, which mentioned that pilgrims used to perform dands on pilgrimages. This is of course very reminiscent of how Tibetan pilgrims do the same with prostrations. Interesting, I wonder if people still do this in modern India.

EDIT

I found this old book by the Rajah of Aundh, one of the pioneers of Surayanamaskara on Scribd:



In chapter X, he talks about how he actually modified the procedure he originally learned to something resembling the modern version. He modified the movement to have "more strain" on the abdomen, the legs, the waist etc.

At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker, one thing about modern sun salutations that does scare me is hyper-extending the back in a lot of the positions. However, the diagrams in all these old books actually don't really have that.
MiphamFan
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan »

I found more info about the Hindu prostrations.

They are called Sashstanga danda pradakshina. This article about pilgrimages to Mount Kailash contrasts Tibetan practice of prostrations with Hindu non-practice in modern times: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... 14_214-231

They are kinda in between Tibetan prostrations and the suryanamaskara variations. When you go down on the floor, you still do so from a squat position, putting your legs back one by one, rather than kneel and "roll forward" like Tibetan long prostrations, but you lie flat on the ground at the very bottom, unlike the suryanamaskaras.

Here's a video



I think the "old" Suryanamaskaras without the hyperextensions are probably the healthiest. So basically take a modern Surayanamaskara, but don't do those hyperextension warrior poses.

I tried the Rajah of Aundh's method above and found it pretty smooth, there is no "warrior pose" etc, no hyperextension, but I guess peoplke should still be careful if they feel any strain.

I find the rhetoric about prostrations in some Tibetan Buddhist communities a bit masochistic, I prefer to err on the side of caution with regards to one's health.
amanitamusc
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by amanitamusc »

these are some of my favorite prostrations.
https://www.istockphoto.com/photos/man- ... 20sleeping
KristenM
Posts: 1335
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:13 am
Location: California

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by KristenM »

MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:45 am Yes
MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.
Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In
umm what did I just watch? With that Midnight Express soundtrack too? :shock:
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Grigoris »

TharpaChodron wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:51 pmumm what did I just watch? With that Midnight Express soundtrack too? :shock:
And you got to see the guys tackle at the beginning of the video! Bonus!!! :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
MiphamFan
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan »

TharpaChodron wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:51 pm
MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:45 am Yes

Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In
umm what did I just watch? With that Midnight Express soundtrack too? :shock:
lol

Yeah, the editing doesn't make it very good to learn the rhythm of the exercise from.
KristenM
Posts: 1335
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:13 am
Location: California

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by KristenM »

MiphamFan wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:27 am
TharpaChodron wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:51 pm
MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am
Thanks.

What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:



It seems to me that the sun salutation probably evolved from something like this.

In
umm what did I just watch? With that Midnight Express soundtrack too? :shock:
lol

Yeah, the editing doesn't make it very good to learn the rhythm of the exercise from.
well I got the rhythm of the exercise pretty well. :tongue:
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by DGA »

I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.
User avatar
Caoimhghín
Posts: 3419
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Caoimhghín »

DGA wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:09 am I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:

I noticed it too. :sage:

:spy:
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
User avatar
justsit
Posts: 1466
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by justsit »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am
DGA wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:09 am I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
In some circles? Very. :smile:
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Malcolm »

MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am
What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?
IMO, it is a very good way to protect your back, knees and do prostrations.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by DGA »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am
DGA wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:09 am I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
I'm a 0 on the Kinsey scale and I've known about Tom of Finland since I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. My mom introduced me to it. She was a character. Today is her birthday, oddly enough.

:offtopic:
User avatar
Caoimhghín
Posts: 3419
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by Caoimhghín »

DGA wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am
DGA wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:09 am I think Tom of Finland directed that clip.
How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
I'm a 0 on the Kinsey scale and I've known about Tom of Finland since I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. My mom introduced me to it. She was a character. Today is her birthday, oddly enough.

:offtopic:
Why so defensive?

Did you think I was calling you a homosexual?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
MiphamFan
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by MiphamFan »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:56 pm
DGA wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
I'm a 0 on the Kinsey scale and I've known about Tom of Finland since I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. My mom introduced me to it. She was a character. Today is her birthday, oddly enough.

:offtopic:
Why so defensive?

Did you think I was calling you a homosexual?
Enough, this thread is about sun salutations.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by DGA »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:56 pm
DGA wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 am How well-known a figure is he? :stirthepot:
I'm a 0 on the Kinsey scale and I've known about Tom of Finland since I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. My mom introduced me to it. She was a character. Today is her birthday, oddly enough.

:offtopic:
Why so defensive?

Did you think I was calling you a homosexual?
:rolling:

This is good DharmaWheel.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?

Post by DGA »

MiphamFan wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:00 am Enough, this thread is about sun salutations.
Aren't you the one who posted this fabulous video?
MiphamFan wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:25 am I remember reading about Hindu pushups before and just found this:

Post Reply

Return to “Wellness, Diet and Fitness”