Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

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Grigoris
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:09 pm

Joka wrote:Yes, there is ignorance also. I agree.
Ignorance is the basis of all defiling mental states and (subsequent) actions, because 99.9% of Buddhists are "victims" of their ignorance, then it is 99.9% likely that they will engage in actions that will perpetuate their suffering. That is why there are Buddhists that justify war, violence and all other sorts of atrocities using Buddhism. That though, is the failure of Buddhists, not a failure of Dharma.
Last edited by Grigoris on Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:22 pm

Karma Jinpa wrote:In the docu-bio film on Garchen Rinpoche's life, For the Benefit of All Beings, Drikung Kyabgön Chetsang Rinpoche explains that if an enemy meets the 10 conditions, it is permissible to kill them, but that this is unlike ordinary killing with malice in one's heart. It must be done with only compassion as the motivation. In tantra such wrathful activity is known as "liberating."

Garchen Rinpoche states that he thought he could not sit idly by while people were being killed and monasteries and their contents were being destroyed. Rather than allow these soldiers to accrue such negative karma, he would try and stop them. "If I had to go to hell, so be it." He states that his chief concern was, indeed, the safety of the Dalai Lama and allowing for his flight into exile. Thus Garchen Rinpoche is one of the many soldiers or freedom fighters the Dalai Lama refers to in his above quote.

He spent nearly 20 years in prison after surrendering with the rest of the Tensung Mak, and after his release eventually visited with the Dalai Lama in India. When they met, rather than ask for empowerment as most would, he requested the Bodhisattva vows since he thought that perhaps he had tainted or broken them by combating the Chinese Communist soldiers.
Thank you for telling Garchen Rinpoche's story, I've heard it before but never knew who the Rinpoche was.

Do you know what the 10 conditions are? Not that I plan on killing anyone I'm just curious :tongue:
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tiagolps
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by tiagolps » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:22 pm

Joka wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
Joka wrote:
Somehow I think Japanese people would disagree.
Most japanese never liked the sohei, they were controversial back then as well. They were mafia disguised as monks
Can you explain that further?
Not much to explain really. They were born out of petty fights between different sects that eventually became armed warfare.

Here's a poem:

There are three things beyond my control: the rapids on the Kamo river, the dice at gambling, and the monks of the mountain.
– Emperor Go Shirakawa-in, 12th century
Homage to you, blissful, virtuous and peaceful,
Enjoy the domain of the tranquil nirvana.
Fully possessing the om and the soha,
You overcome even the greatest of evils.

shaunc
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by shaunc » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:51 pm

binocular wrote:
madhusudan wrote:“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
Dalai Lama XIV
What if you don't have a gun? Should you go and obtain it?

Should you prepare yourself in advance -- by obtaining a gun -- for the case that someone does come at you at some point in the future?
Yes, you should obtain one, as quickly as you bloody well can, I would say.
As far as preparing yourself in advance, I would say that probably depends upon the circumstances you live in.
For me, I'd say no as I live in a peaceful and relatively gun free society other people on this forum probably can't say that. My country does have a military and a police force so that will tell you that what I'm saying isn't 100% true but it's probably 90% true .

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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:01 pm

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Karma Jinpa wrote:In the docu-bio film on Garchen Rinpoche's life, For the Benefit of All Beings, Drikung Kyabgön Chetsang Rinpoche explains that if an enemy meets the 10 conditions, it is permissible to kill them, but that this is unlike ordinary killing with malice in one's heart. It must be done with only compassion as the motivation. In tantra such wrathful activity is known as "liberating."
Thank you for telling Garchen Rinpoche's story, I've heard it before but never knew who the Rinpoche was.

Do you know what the 10 conditions are? Not that I plan on killing anyone I'm just curious :tongue:
I don't know them offhand, and would have to rewatch the film in order to tell you. You should really try to get your hands on a copy and watch it yourself. I don't do the story justice.
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Norwegian » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:26 pm

Karma Jinpa wrote:
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Karma Jinpa wrote:In the docu-bio film on Garchen Rinpoche's life, For the Benefit of All Beings, Drikung Kyabgön Chetsang Rinpoche explains that if an enemy meets the 10 conditions, it is permissible to kill them, but that this is unlike ordinary killing with malice in one's heart. It must be done with only compassion as the motivation. In tantra such wrathful activity is known as "liberating."
Thank you for telling Garchen Rinpoche's story, I've heard it before but never knew who the Rinpoche was.

Do you know what the 10 conditions are? Not that I plan on killing anyone I'm just curious :tongue:
I don't know them offhand, and would have to rewatch the film in order to tell you. You should really try to get your hands on a copy and watch it yourself. I don't do the story justice.
From the phur pa khrag 'thung rtsa ba'i rgyud, the ten categories of those to be liberated (bsgral ba'i zhing bcu):

Those who bring dishonor to the Triple Gem,
Cause harm to the Buddhist religion,
Embezzel the property of the Sangha,
Slander the Mahayana,
Place the life of the guru in danger,
Sow discord among the vajra assembly,
Interrupt the attainment of siddhi, and
Turn away from that which is sacred (i.e., abandon their vows),
Cruel demons devoid of compassion
Who profess the perverted views of non-Buddhists,
Adversaries of those who strive in religious practice (sadhaka).

These are the ten kinds of being who must be destroyed.


This also then requires a more thorough explanation and context for a proper understanding.

And from RYWiki:

ten objects bsgral ba'i zhing bcu: The enemy of the Three Jewels, and of the master, the samaya violator, and the malicious, the samaya enemy with a wicked character, the one suitable to include, and who harms everyone, and the three lower realms, these ten should be apprehended by all yogis. [RY]

ten defects or the ten objects are: 1) The enemy of the Three Jewels, 2) the enemy of the master, 3) The samaya violator, 4) the perverted one, 6. the hostile one, 7. The samaya enemy with a wicked character, 8. The one arriving to the congregation, 9. the harmer of everyone, 10. the three lower realms. The enemies and obstructers are one's own and other's ignorance. In the liberation offering the ignorance is liberated into awareness [RY]

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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:27 pm

Joka wrote:
shaunc wrote:There's quite a few Buddhist countries in the world. They've all got a military, police force and judicial system.
That tells me that buddhist or not sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do.
Unfortunately it's a real world we live in not a Buddhist utopia.
And that is one of the points I'm addressing. I'm glad others also see this fact.
So people from traditionally Buddhist countries are all Buddhas?

Are we really to believe that the behaviors of every Thai, Burmese, Tibetan etc. etc. are adequate examples of Buddhist ideals?
That because they are from traditionally Buddhist countries, they are therefore also adequate, authoritative representatives of Buddhism?

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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:28 pm

shaunc wrote: Yes, you should obtain one, as quickly as you bloody well can, I would say.
Obtaining a gun amounts to premeditation to kill.

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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Nemo » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:32 pm

Joka wrote:
Nemo wrote:Sometimes the best course of action if losing. Being brave does not only mean fighting and winning. Winning always comes with a cost.
Can you extrapolate on that more? I think that I understand what you're saying but more would be helpful.
Firstly if you think Gandhi was solely responsible for Indian independence you really haven't studied. He was a rational, sane voice that only succeeded because of the violent armed revolutionaries working simultaneously. Gandhi's did not do particularly well against the Chinese, Khmer Rouge, Maoists, Nazis, Stalinists, etc, etc. They were a very simple logistics problem involving the cost of bullets, transport and digging holes. When resources were tight resuing plastic bags for suffocation and piling them up in ditches sufficed.

I'm saying winning has a personal cost. Often it takes a certain amount of ruthlessness to win. To go that route has many hidden costs. The Dalai Lama saw winning through force was impossible. Losing is not the worst thing. Becoming what you claim to hate is worse.

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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:41 pm

Joka wrote:As I said previously, non-aggression and nonviolence is the highest ideal where I'll go one step further saying that violence, conflict, or warfare shouldn't be glorified in massive celebration. War, violence, and conflict of all kinds should be avoided at all costs. I see all three as the option of last resort. My problem however is the Buddhist perfectionist view that violence, war, or conflict is always avoidable at all times. It would be nice if we lived in such a perfect world where that was true but I just don't view the real world that we live in to be like that. I think on some rare occasions violence and fighting is necessary especially against those that would do others harm.

The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few and sometimes those few make life or existence unbearable for a majority to simply live and exist. Is it not an act of compassion or enlightenment to fight for the oppressed and against tyrants of all stripes?
You keep avoiding my questions.
Here they are again:

Do those fighting such wars believe themselves to be innocent and morally superior, and also spiritually superior; and is everyone else is supposed to think this way of them?

Are those who are the victims in a war innocent?

Are those who win a war are morally superior?
War, violence, and conflict of all kinds should be avoided at all costs. I see all three as the option of last resort.
You contradict yourself.
First you say that "war, violence, and conflict of all kinds should be avoided at all costs" but then you say "on some rare occasions violence and fighting is necessary".
You either avoid war, violence, and conflict of all kinds at all costs, or you don't.
My problem however is the Buddhist perfectionist view that violence, war, or conflict is always avoidable at all times.
The problem is that you present things in a limited frame. You seem to think that you are innocent or that people who later become victims are innocent, and that it's just the fault of the kid who comes to school with a shotgun, or that it's just the fault of the "disgruntled employee" who arrives at his former workplace with a bomb.
Is it not an act of compassion or enlightenment to fight for the oppressed and against tyrants of all stripes?
Not when it's done in an effort to avoid thinking about issues of karma and rebirth.


It's amazing that at a Buddhist discussion forum, it is, again, outrageous and unacceptable to refer to karma and rebirth!

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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:46 pm

Nemo wrote:Gandhi's did not do particularly well against the Chinese, Khmer Rouge, Maoists, Nazis, Stalinists, etc, etc. They were a very simple logistics problem involving the cost of bullets, transport and digging holes.
It's not only that. Gandhi's resistance against the British was successful also because the British were, despite everything, still moral enough to have had enough of killing unarmed people. A resistance like Gandhi's is ineffective against an opponent who has fewer moral scruples than the British.

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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Nemo » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:10 pm

Being armed and threatening violence can be effective though and a skillful means. Like telling someone about to mug an old lady you will break him so badly he will regret this day for the rest of his life. Life gets messy.

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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Matt J » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:07 am

That's why all this talk is useless. It is just abstract mental posturing. People say one thing, but may do another given the situation. One of the wise things about the Buddha's teachings is a recognition that the world is not fixed, and neither are our behaviors. If we want to know what to do in a given situation, we shouldn't think about it, but rather spend the time in practice getting in touch with our inner Buddha-nature, and then we will know what to do in the moment when it arises.
binocular wrote: It's usually in abstract moral thought-experiments that things look bleak and all black-and-white, while in the real life, there are often options available.
Last edited by Ayu on Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quote.
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Ayu » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:21 am

Matt J wrote:That's why all this talk is useless. It is just abstract mental posturing. People say one thing, but may do another given the situation. One of the wise things about the Buddha's teachings is a recognition that the world is not fixed, and neither are our behaviors. If we want to know what to do in a given situation, we shouldn't think about it, but rather spend the time in practice getting in touch with our inner Buddha-nature, and then we will know what to do in the moment when it arises.
What an appropriate last word for this topic.

Thread locked.
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Hate is too great a burden to bear.
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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by Ayu » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:58 pm

Due to some complaint I reconsidered the locking.
I locked the thread, because I took offence at some posts that are removed now. Maybe this is not enough reason to stop the whole conversation. :bow:

Thread unlocked. Please, whatever your viewpoint is, don't disparrage Buddhism nor it's venerable Teachers. Thanks.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.

Post by WendyDarling » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:12 am

Violence is a material human beings weakness to act in a physical altercation with the intention of illicit aggression. There are forms of defense for oneself and others to deflect physical altercations which would leave ones conscience clear. A high pain threshold and an impervious will could "take" the impact to make a statement of sacrifice for a higher purpose, a higher principle, but living is harder than dying.

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