Is suicide OK?

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Grigoris
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby Grigoris » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:00 pm

Tolya M wrote:The list of possible types of suffering is large and an even longer is list of conditions. It is quite clear that the intentional abandonment of the body can stop some of the suffering. This dependence of the level of "stop being sick". It is true within Abhidharma\Abhidhamma without any problems. It does not even make sense to consider it, it's so obvious.
Stop cherry picking, it doesn't make you look smart.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

boda
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby boda » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
boda wrote:I doubt many of the unfortunate folks who contemplate suicide because of their unbearable pain delve deeply into philosophical frameworks of any sort. Regardless of their religious beliefs, or philosophical frameworks, they just want the pain to stop.

In this light I think it would be fairer to say that this degree of pain tests a persons convictions, merely.

I deal with people that mainly have mental and existential pain.


Are you suggesting that this sort of pain is never unbearable or sufficient cause for suicide?

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Grigoris
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby Grigoris » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:45 pm

boda wrote:Are you suggesting that this sort of pain is never unbearable or sufficient cause for suicide?
No.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

joy&peace
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby joy&peace » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:26 pm

Suicide is not ok, unless you already did it.

Uh, too far?

Actually, I think the basic correct answer someone already gave.

Suicide is not so good because, our body is not our body.

It's interdependent with all life.

This is why Shantideva says, .. well .. what he says,

and why if you want to help the world, the best way,

Is to go out into the desert or mountain and meditate.

Then come back abs share -- after you've found peace.

But.. That peace has to be connected - like, not at the cost of others etc.

Anyway :D

Namaste.
:buddha2:
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

binocular
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby binocular » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:In my 20 something years as a psychologist and social worker I have yet to meet somebody that has attempted to commit suicide that has not regretted their action. Why? Because mainly because their decision to commit suicide was always based in a despair that did not allow them to see the possibility of change. In almost every single case, after the failed attempt, circumstances changed and allowed the person to live in a relative peace, but if the attempt had succeeded...

And it is possible that the very suicide attempt was what changed the circumstances (such as other people finally beginning to care about the person), or caused some kind of hormonal jolt in the body that changed the way a person thinks. Meaning, if they hadn't attempted suicide, they would have not found that new hope and way out of despair.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby binocular » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:06 pm

Queequeg wrote:Not really. I didn't bring up anything about controlling people. I asked if it is acceptable to kill yourself according to Buddhadharma. The answer is pretty well settled - OK if you have no afflictions. If you are afflicted, it doesn't solve the problem you think you're solving, and likely makes things worse.

A situation is conceivable where a person reaches the point at which they see, with calm reason, that they won't be able to make any progress in the Dharma in this lifetime anymore. Such a person recognizes that they still have afflictions, but they also recognize that in this lifetime, they aren't able to do anything about them anymore. When such a person decides to commit suicide, it's not to end their suffering, but to make an end to the bodily vehicle that has become useless as far as making progress in the Dharma is concerned.

Soma999
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby Soma999 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:33 pm

Taking one's life away does not finish karma. It creates more karma. And more suffering.

Pray for the ease of pain, and to be helped, even carried if you can't "walk" by yourself. Or the courage to walk through all the difficulties.

There are profesionnals and compassionate persons who can help.

Tolya M
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby Tolya M » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tolya M wrote:The list of possible types of suffering is large and an even longer is list of conditions. It is quite clear that the intentional abandonment of the body can stop some of the suffering. This dependence of the level of "stop being sick". It is true within Abhidharma\Abhidhamma without any problems. It does not even make sense to consider it, it's so obvious.
Stop cherry picking, it doesn't make you look smart.


Well, I read what the "cherry picking" is ))) I did not do this because I did not identify particular cases with the whole possible mass of events. On the contrary, I said that there are a lot of possible cases. To discuss only the confused wordlings on the Buddhist forum is not very smart, because there is an opportunity to change the approach to life and death.

Buston gives an interesting detail about this last journey of the master. He says that while Vasubandhu was in the north, he went to visit a monk named Handu. Handu was inebriated, and carrying an immense pot of wine on his shoulder. Vasubandhu upon seeing this cried, "Alas! The Doctrine will go to ruin", recited the Usnisa-Vijaya-dharani in reverse order, and died.

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Grigoris
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby Grigoris » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:37 pm

Tolya M wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Tolya M wrote:The list of possible types of suffering is large and an even longer is list of conditions. It is quite clear that the intentional abandonment of the body can stop some of the suffering. This dependence of the level of "stop being sick". It is true within Abhidharma\Abhidhamma without any problems. It does not even make sense to consider it, it's so obvious.
Stop cherry picking, it doesn't make you look smart.


Well, I read what the "cherry picking" is ))) I did not do this because I did not identify particular cases with the whole possible mass of events. On the contrary, I said that there are a lot of possible cases. To discuss only the confused wordlings on the Buddhist forum is not very smart, because there is an opportunity to change the approach to life and death.

Buston gives an interesting detail about this last journey of the master. He says that while Vasubandhu was in the north, he went to visit a monk named Handu. Handu was inebriated, and carrying an immense pot of wine on his shoulder. Vasubandhu upon seeing this cried, "Alas! The Doctrine will go to ruin", recited the Usnisa-Vijaya-dharani in reverse order, and died.
Ummmm... Yeah? :shrug:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

The Artis Magistra
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby The Artis Magistra » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:26 pm

The question "is suicide OK" has some simple answers, but the question itself can cause confusion because it is missing some elements, like what the "OK" refers to or by who or what or whatever.

Anyway, the simplest answer would be that suicide is not OK, and that we hope that no one is put in a situation where they do such a thing.

Now is it known to any of us with certainty what a hypothetical person killing themselves will result in? Well, yes, we can make up any sort of hypothetical results for a hypothetical person.

One thing can be said for certain, enlightenment is not attained by suicide according to just about anyone anywhere for the most part. Suicide may be part of a story, it may be in there, but generally the idea has not been very popular that shooting yourself in the head or something is the way to achieve enlightenment.

Now here is something a little sad and funny and curious about suicide which typically causes so much pain and suffering for many people, the intentions of the self-killer is usually in some ways good. How so? Well, it is typically understood they are doing this in an effort to avoid trouble, seek peace, and experience relief. These are very similar to the sorts of hopes any good and noble person might have. Seriously. So that is one good point about it, that it has something in there which is shared by good people, but it can become a disruptive idea which is also delusional or based in delusion, because it doesn't generally work to accomplish what they are really wishing for immediately, but may even delay them from achieving exactly what they might have hoped for.

So are there people, in great pain, who beg to be killed? Yes. Should we kill them? No. Are we being bad and merciless by not killing them? No, we are doing it out of compassion and mercy as far as we are aware if we are believers in the Dharma which does not suggest that killing people is a thing we should go about doing, nor does our killing them assist them towards enlightenment. Even the pain is better than the killing in that sense.

If suicide was the way to instant enlightenment, I would encourage it, wholly, and suggest we all partake in it, but it is not, it is ignorance leading to ignorance wishing for ignorance and would typically return one or bring them to another state which is not yet the ideal.

So when a person is begging to die, listen to them, comfort them, be kind to them, but do not kill them, do not stain yourself, do not participate in their staining either. This even went so far in stories as people not contributing towards things as innocent seeming as marriages or revelries, that is not to say that there should not be these, but if we deem there to be a better way it is our duty to work towards goodness as best we can and not add to the troubles.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby Empty Form » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:34 pm

When we die, we go through a series of visions as the winds associated with the elements retract into the heart, then we go through different states of consciousness. It is said, that this is a time we can use to positively influence our next incarnation or even break the cycle. A person committing suicide will often be in a very distressed/disturbed state and therefore may not be able to use this time properly. This is the main reason I can see for it not being a good idea. In an assisted suicide however, the person might be prepared and calm and therefore not have any problems.

Rishin
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby Rishin » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:28 pm

Died by suicide. Taking their own life. Not "committed suicide".

That has far too many damaging connotations and is something we ought to endeavour to remove from common parlance.

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Queen Elizabeth II
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby Queen Elizabeth II » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:16 am

Rishin wrote:Died by suicide. Taking their own life. Not "committed suicide".

That has far too many damaging connotations


Such as?

Rishin
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Postby Rishin » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:44 am

Queen Elizabeth II wrote:
Rishin wrote:Died by suicide. Taking their own life. Not "committed suicide".

That has far too many damaging connotations


Such as?


Suicide is a result of extreme suffering be it psychological, emotional, or physical. By saying "committed suicide" you bring in a great deal of judgement, shame, and put the act in the same category as a crime. In many places, it is not criminalised anymore, the idea of committing suicide harkens back to times when it was illegal.

Survivors and family members have enough to deal with without the added weight of feelings of shame and judgement.


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