Is suicide OK?

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Grigoris
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:00 pm

Tolya M wrote:The list of possible types of suffering is large and an even longer is list of conditions. It is quite clear that the intentional abandonment of the body can stop some of the suffering. This dependence of the level of "stop being sick". It is true within Abhidharma\Abhidhamma without any problems. It does not even make sense to consider it, it's so obvious.
Stop cherry picking, it doesn't make you look smart.
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boda
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by boda » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
boda wrote:I doubt many of the unfortunate folks who contemplate suicide because of their unbearable pain delve deeply into philosophical frameworks of any sort. Regardless of their religious beliefs, or philosophical frameworks, they just want the pain to stop.

In this light I think it would be fairer to say that this degree of pain tests a persons convictions, merely.
I deal with people that mainly have mental and existential pain.
Are you suggesting that this sort of pain is never unbearable or sufficient cause for suicide?

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Grigoris
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:45 pm

boda wrote:Are you suggesting that this sort of pain is never unbearable or sufficient cause for suicide?
No.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

joy&peace
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by joy&peace » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:26 pm

Suicide is not ok, unless you already did it.

Uh, too far?

Actually, I think the basic correct answer someone already gave.

Suicide is not so good because, our body is not our body.

It's interdependent with all life.

This is why Shantideva says, .. well .. what he says,

and why if you want to help the world, the best way,

Is to go out into the desert or mountain and meditate.

Then come back abs share -- after you've found peace.

But.. That peace has to be connected - like, not at the cost of others etc.

Anyway :D

Namaste.
:buddha2:
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by binocular » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:In my 20 something years as a psychologist and social worker I have yet to meet somebody that has attempted to commit suicide that has not regretted their action. Why? Because mainly because their decision to commit suicide was always based in a despair that did not allow them to see the possibility of change. In almost every single case, after the failed attempt, circumstances changed and allowed the person to live in a relative peace, but if the attempt had succeeded...
And it is possible that the very suicide attempt was what changed the circumstances (such as other people finally beginning to care about the person), or caused some kind of hormonal jolt in the body that changed the way a person thinks. Meaning, if they hadn't attempted suicide, they would have not found that new hope and way out of despair.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by binocular » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:06 pm

Queequeg wrote:Not really. I didn't bring up anything about controlling people. I asked if it is acceptable to kill yourself according to Buddhadharma. The answer is pretty well settled - OK if you have no afflictions. If you are afflicted, it doesn't solve the problem you think you're solving, and likely makes things worse.
A situation is conceivable where a person reaches the point at which they see, with calm reason, that they won't be able to make any progress in the Dharma in this lifetime anymore. Such a person recognizes that they still have afflictions, but they also recognize that in this lifetime, they aren't able to do anything about them anymore. When such a person decides to commit suicide, it's not to end their suffering, but to make an end to the bodily vehicle that has become useless as far as making progress in the Dharma is concerned.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Soma999 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:33 pm

Taking one's life away does not finish karma. It creates more karma. And more suffering.

Pray for the ease of pain, and to be helped, even carried if you can't "walk" by yourself. Or the courage to walk through all the difficulties.

There are profesionnals and compassionate persons who can help.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Tolya M » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tolya M wrote:The list of possible types of suffering is large and an even longer is list of conditions. It is quite clear that the intentional abandonment of the body can stop some of the suffering. This dependence of the level of "stop being sick". It is true within Abhidharma\Abhidhamma without any problems. It does not even make sense to consider it, it's so obvious.
Stop cherry picking, it doesn't make you look smart.
Well, I read what the "cherry picking" is ))) I did not do this because I did not identify particular cases with the whole possible mass of events. On the contrary, I said that there are a lot of possible cases. To discuss only the confused wordlings on the Buddhist forum is not very smart, because there is an opportunity to change the approach to life and death.
Buston gives an interesting detail about this last journey of the master. He says that while Vasubandhu was in the north, he went to visit a monk named Handu. Handu was inebriated, and carrying an immense pot of wine on his shoulder. Vasubandhu upon seeing this cried, "Alas! The Doctrine will go to ruin", recited the Usnisa-Vijaya-dharani in reverse order, and died.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:37 pm

Tolya M wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Tolya M wrote:The list of possible types of suffering is large and an even longer is list of conditions. It is quite clear that the intentional abandonment of the body can stop some of the suffering. This dependence of the level of "stop being sick". It is true within Abhidharma\Abhidhamma without any problems. It does not even make sense to consider it, it's so obvious.
Stop cherry picking, it doesn't make you look smart.
Well, I read what the "cherry picking" is ))) I did not do this because I did not identify particular cases with the whole possible mass of events. On the contrary, I said that there are a lot of possible cases. To discuss only the confused wordlings on the Buddhist forum is not very smart, because there is an opportunity to change the approach to life and death.
Buston gives an interesting detail about this last journey of the master. He says that while Vasubandhu was in the north, he went to visit a monk named Handu. Handu was inebriated, and carrying an immense pot of wine on his shoulder. Vasubandhu upon seeing this cried, "Alas! The Doctrine will go to ruin", recited the Usnisa-Vijaya-dharani in reverse order, and died.
Ummmm... Yeah? :shrug:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

The Artis Magistra
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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by The Artis Magistra » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:26 pm

The question "is suicide OK" has some simple answers, but the question itself can cause confusion because it is missing some elements, like what the "OK" refers to or by who or what or whatever.

Anyway, the simplest answer would be that suicide is not OK, and that we hope that no one is put in a situation where they do such a thing.

Now is it known to any of us with certainty what a hypothetical person killing themselves will result in? Well, yes, we can make up any sort of hypothetical results for a hypothetical person.

One thing can be said for certain, enlightenment is not attained by suicide according to just about anyone anywhere for the most part. Suicide may be part of a story, it may be in there, but generally the idea has not been very popular that shooting yourself in the head or something is the way to achieve enlightenment.

Now here is something a little sad and funny and curious about suicide which typically causes so much pain and suffering for many people, the intentions of the self-killer is usually in some ways good. How so? Well, it is typically understood they are doing this in an effort to avoid trouble, seek peace, and experience relief. These are very similar to the sorts of hopes any good and noble person might have. Seriously. So that is one good point about it, that it has something in there which is shared by good people, but it can become a disruptive idea which is also delusional or based in delusion, because it doesn't generally work to accomplish what they are really wishing for immediately, but may even delay them from achieving exactly what they might have hoped for.

So are there people, in great pain, who beg to be killed? Yes. Should we kill them? No. Are we being bad and merciless by not killing them? No, we are doing it out of compassion and mercy as far as we are aware if we are believers in the Dharma which does not suggest that killing people is a thing we should go about doing, nor does our killing them assist them towards enlightenment. Even the pain is better than the killing in that sense.

If suicide was the way to instant enlightenment, I would encourage it, wholly, and suggest we all partake in it, but it is not, it is ignorance leading to ignorance wishing for ignorance and would typically return one or bring them to another state which is not yet the ideal.

So when a person is begging to die, listen to them, comfort them, be kind to them, but do not kill them, do not stain yourself, do not participate in their staining either. This even went so far in stories as people not contributing towards things as innocent seeming as marriages or revelries, that is not to say that there should not be these, but if we deem there to be a better way it is our duty to work towards goodness as best we can and not add to the troubles.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Empty Form » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:34 pm

When we die, we go through a series of visions as the winds associated with the elements retract into the heart, then we go through different states of consciousness. It is said, that this is a time we can use to positively influence our next incarnation or even break the cycle. A person committing suicide will often be in a very distressed/disturbed state and therefore may not be able to use this time properly. This is the main reason I can see for it not being a good idea. In an assisted suicide however, the person might be prepared and calm and therefore not have any problems.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Rishin » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:28 pm

Died by suicide. Taking their own life. Not "committed suicide".

That has far too many damaging connotations and is something we ought to endeavour to remove from common parlance.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Queen Elizabeth II » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:16 am

Rishin wrote:Died by suicide. Taking their own life. Not "committed suicide".

That has far too many damaging connotations
Such as?

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Rishin » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:44 am

Queen Elizabeth II wrote:
Rishin wrote:Died by suicide. Taking their own life. Not "committed suicide".

That has far too many damaging connotations
Such as?
Suicide is a result of extreme suffering be it psychological, emotional, or physical. By saying "committed suicide" you bring in a great deal of judgement, shame, and put the act in the same category as a crime. In many places, it is not criminalised anymore, the idea of committing suicide harkens back to times when it was illegal.

Survivors and family members have enough to deal with without the added weight of feelings of shame and judgement.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by AvaLily » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:15 pm

Suicide is never ok well at lest for the families left behind i lost my step dad to suicide 6 years ago in September the pain of losing a loved one anyway is upsetting but losing someone to suicide is so painful he gone we had to tell my 6 and 7 year old nieces that there granddad is gone he was loved so much he wasnt in his right mind at the time he is so badly missed some family members since then have dealt with the loss by using drugs and we have my step dads great granddaughters who will never know him and some family member who are mentally ill due to the trauma of losing him i myself have mental health problems but i had them before my step dad died

but i myself have wanted to kill myself many time before my step dad died since then my mental health have gotten worse and i cant be left on my own due to this am a danger to myself most of the time i blame myself for my step dad death i think since i had mental health problems id would know that my step dad was so ill i could have stopped him my mother is now a bitter old women and blames my sister for my step dads death because at the time she was unable to look after my nieces due to her mental health
people who kill themselves only think of there own pain or at lest they have the belief that there family would be better off with out them .
the thing is we are better with them in our lives because they are so precious to us there lives mean everything .

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Punya » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:29 pm

I agree that it's very difficult for the family and friends left behind and something to be seriously considered, to the extent possible, when contemplating suicide. I hope things get better for you and your family members soon, AvaLily.

On the other hand, I have seen families pressuring those with a terminal illness, and in a great deal of pain, to stay alive at all costs. They seem to be focussed on themselves rather than the person suffering. Psychological suffering in my view is different and the comments that Greg and Jesse made earlier about not being able to see a different way out are salient.

My understanding of the Mahayana view of suicide is that that we should continue to retain our precious human body as long as possible and that committing suicide only means we will have to face similar difficulties again in a future life. Nevertheless, we might still make that choice in particular circumstances.
Just as the trunk of an ordinary tree
Lying in the forests of the Malaya mountains
Absorbs the perfume of sandal from the moist leaves and branches
So you come to resemble who whomever you follow.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by DGA » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:36 pm

What's suicide?

I don't mean to be flip. I'm asking because it seems to me that some aspects of this discussion are at cross-purposes, and there may be a definitional problem at the core of it.

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by odysseus » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:55 pm

Suicide is not allowed.
Let a man not seek for the respect of his peers, let him seek wisdom.

-- Dhammapada

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:16 pm

Soma999 wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:33 pm
Taking one's life away does not finish karma. It creates more karma. And more suffering.

Pray for the ease of pain, and to be helped, even carried if you can't "walk" by yourself. Or the courage to walk through all the difficulties.

There are profesionnals and compassionate persons who can help.
I like this response. Thanks for sharing.

My own view of suicide is that as the person dies, they hope to be free from their pain. Instead, they discover death did not bring an end. Since suffering is mental while pain is physical, the mental suffering does not magically go away. At the very least, aversion to physical suffering remains. This could very well compound the distress, leading to unfortunate birth. Unless the person had a very strong religious practice which they bring to mind, I worry about such a being attaining even human birth next time around. Tragedy upon tragedy :thinking:

Thanks to all for continuing this discussion. It's been a good read and brought this particular issue and the beings affected to mind for me.
Namo Amitabhaya
OM MA NI PE ME HUNG

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Re: Is suicide OK?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:09 pm

DGA wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:36 pm
What's suicide?

I don't mean to be flip. I'm asking because it seems to me that some aspects of this discussion are at cross-purposes, and there may be a definitional problem at the core of it.
D, can you expand on your question? What do you identify as the cross-purposes and tension due to definition?
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