The Great Abortion Debate

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GrapeLover
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by GrapeLover »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:07 pm I would be very interested on a citation where the buddha suggests making judgement calls on what could be potentially bad past karma. Especially in regards to decisions regarding ending sentient life.
Definitely nothing to do with ending sentient life, but from the Longer Sukhavati Sutra:

The Buddha said to Ananda, "If a beggar in extreme poverty sits by the side of a king, how can their appearances be compared?"

Ananda replied, "If such a man sits by the side of a king, his emaciated, mean and ragged appearance cannot be compared with the king's. His appearance is a thousand million kotis or even incalculable times inferior to the king's. What is the reason for this? The conditions of a beggar in extreme poverty--being at the lowest social level, with barely enough clothes to cover his body, scarcely enough food to sustain his life, with hunger and cold always tormenting him, and having almost lost in human contact -- are all the result of his misdeeds in former lives. In the past he did not cultivate roots of virtue, but instead, accumulated riches without giving anything to others. He became more miserly as his wealth increased, desired to obtain more, insatiably hankered after further acquisitions and gave no thought to good actions. Thus he piled up a mountain of evil karma. When his life ended, all his wealth was gone, and what he had accumulated with great toil and worry was of no avail to him; all passed in vain into the possession of others. Having no stock of merit on which to depend and no virtue on which to rely, after death he fell into one of the evil realms, where he suffered pain for a long period. When his karmic retributions ended, he was able to escape, but was reborn into a lower class; being foolish, base and inferior, he barely maintains the appearance of a human being.

"The king of a country is the most Honored of all men. This is the reward for virtues accumulated in former lives, in which he, with a compassionate heart, gave generously to many, saved people from suffering through kindness and benevolence, performed good deeds with sincerity, and never disputed with others. When that life ended, he was rewarded by rebirth into a higher state. Born in a heavenly realm, he enjoyed bliss and happiness. His accumulated virtues produced such a surplus of goodness that, when he was reborn as a man in this life, his birth was, deservedly, into a royal family. Being naturally noble, his dignified and majestic demeanor commands the respect of his people, and superb clothes and sumptuous food are prepared and served to him as he pleases. All this is a reward for virtues from his past lives."

The Buddha said to Ananda, "What you say is true…”
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

I would be very interested in seeing people realize that nobody here argues that abortions are good, nobody is happy about them and we are here to discuss it from buddhist perspective, not just some feelings we happen to have.

First of all, the baby is not carried around in a jar. It is carried around in someone's body. Many people here get angry when you tell them to not eat meat. I think woman deserves to have a say in what happens with something, that grows in her body.

2nd Let's take a look at what is the practice in most asian countries that are buddhist on the legality of abortion. Great place to researche that is a book called An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics by Peter Harvey. Find a copy, or read the appropriate chapter, it is very informative. There you can find that most asian countries have legal abortions. Why? Because simply it also protects lives of women who would have abortions either way, only from some witch doctor.

3rd What would Buddha say? Well he would probably call out abortions for what they are and that is negative. That is simple, however Buddha is not some sort of close minded conservative pundit. He understands that sometimes negative deeds are just done because this is samsara. That is why we have a story of a butcher who took vows not to kill at night. Buddha didn't bother him "Duuuuude, they are like sentieeent and what you do is like so negative." No he did not do it. He did his best to show the butcher it is negative and negotiated with him at least that. Buddha understood the butcher has to feed his family.

4th Even HH Dalailama said that abortions are negative but "I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance."

5th As Malcolm pointed out we should also take into account when the fetus really is sentient and when it is just a bunch of cells.

Abortions are necessary evil. Just like surgeries are.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
amanitamusc
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by amanitamusc »

Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:40 pm What many have accepted as the Buddhist paradigm of past-life karmic retribution is not at all correct. It has it's roots in ancient pseudo-Hindu misinterpretations of the Vedas, and that wrathful anger people have against wrongdoers that they expect them to be punished for after death because they don't seem to be punished for it in their current life. The punishment is there, but it doesn't carry on the way people who propigate the idea say it does. For example I may feel bad about the things I did in my past life, may have some people who hate me for it in this life, but the process of entering a womb provides that one is born innocent. Any karma accumulated after death would be dealt with by the guilty party before they enter a womb, by Yama and His servants in His abode or wherever He send the guilty party, and anyway, all of the Buddhas and protective Deities are here to help, and no one should be acting on bad karma--they should be acting on Metta. People who think there is any karmic retribution to children in the womb misunderstand reincarnation. Such suffering is evil and comes from senseless hate and ignorance by people who don't have full Maitri for others.

Just because we have different lives doesn't mean we aren't all equal. Babies are clean slates, but the sadness of the situation is that there are some demons who decided to hurt those children, and only the demonic entities of this world cause birth defects, disease, and death in infants, while all the while these children take birth to live out short lives just to grace the world with their Metta.

May all children have long and prosperous lives!
Can you post the Buddhist scriptures you are getting these idea's from?
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Brahma
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Brahma »

amanitamusc wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:48 pm
Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:40 pm What many have accepted as the Buddhist paradigm of past-life karmic retribution is not at all correct. It has it's roots in ancient pseudo-Hindu misinterpretations of the Vedas, and that wrathful anger people have against wrongdoers that they expect them to be punished for after death because they don't seem to be punished for it in their current life. The punishment is there, but it doesn't carry on the way people who propigate the idea say it does. For example I may feel bad about the things I did in my past life, may have some people who hate me for it in this life, but the process of entering a womb provides that one is born innocent. Any karma accumulated after death would be dealt with by the guilty party before they enter a womb, by Yama and His servants in His abode or wherever He send the guilty party, and anyway, all of the Buddhas and protective Deities are here to help, and no one should be acting on bad karma--they should be acting on Metta. People who think there is any karmic retribution to children in the womb misunderstand reincarnation. Such suffering is evil and comes from senseless hate and ignorance by people who don't have full Maitri for others.

Just because we have different lives doesn't mean we aren't all equal. Babies are clean slates, but the sadness of the situation is that there are some demons who decided to hurt those children, and only the demonic entities of this world cause birth defects, disease, and death in infants, while all the while these children take birth to live out short lives just to grace the world with their Metta.

May all children have long and prosperous lives!
Can you post the Buddhist scriptures you are getting these idea's from?
All Buddhist Scriptures are reflections of the Buddha and His followers explaining to others how one should have infinite compassion for others in all situations. My opinion on the matter does not differ from that of the Buddha's.
tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

GrapeLover wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:13 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:07 pm I would be very interested on a citation where the buddha suggests making judgement calls on what could be potentially bad past karma. Especially in regards to decisions regarding ending sentient life.
Definitely nothing to do with ending sentient life, but from the Longer Sukhavati Sutra:

The Buddha said to Ananda, "If a beggar in extreme poverty sits by the side of a king, how can their appearances be compared?"

Ananda replied, "If such a man sits by the side of a king, his emaciated, mean and ragged appearance cannot be compared with the king's. His appearance is a thousand million kotis or even incalculable times inferior to the king's. What is the reason for this? The conditions of a beggar in extreme poverty--being at the lowest social level, with barely enough clothes to cover his body, scarcely enough food to sustain his life, with hunger and cold always tormenting him, and having almost lost in human contact -- are all the result of his misdeeds in former lives. In the past he did not cultivate roots of virtue, but instead, accumulated riches without giving anything to others. He became more miserly as his wealth increased, desired to obtain more, insatiably hankered after further acquisitions and gave no thought to good actions. Thus he piled up a mountain of evil karma. When his life ended, all his wealth was gone, and what he had accumulated with great toil and worry was of no avail to him; all passed in vain into the possession of others. Having no stock of merit on which to depend and no virtue on which to rely, after death he fell into one of the evil realms, where he suffered pain for a long period. When his karmic retributions ended, he was able to escape, but was reborn into a lower class; being foolish, base and inferior, he barely maintains the appearance of a human being.

"The king of a country is the most Honored of all men. This is the reward for virtues accumulated in former lives, in which he, with a compassionate heart, gave generously to many, saved people from suffering through kindness and benevolence, performed good deeds with sincerity, and never disputed with others. When that life ended, he was rewarded by rebirth into a higher state. Born in a heavenly realm, he enjoyed bliss and happiness. His accumulated virtues produced such a surplus of goodness that, when he was reborn as a man in this life, his birth was, deservedly, into a royal family. Being naturally noble, his dignified and majestic demeanor commands the respect of his people, and superb clothes and sumptuous food are prepared and served to him as he pleases. All this is a reward for virtues from his past lives."

The Buddha said to Ananda, "What you say is true…”
How does one judge the appearance of the unborn.
tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:31 pm 3rd What would Buddha say? Well he would probably call out abortions for what they are and that is negative. That is simple,

however Buddha is not some sort of close minded conservative pundit.

Abortions are necessary evil. Just like surgeries are.
Nope. No implicit bias against the evil of man.

The Buddha was far more understanding and compassionate. Perhaps putting bounds to his boundlessness is where it all goes wrong.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:59 pm All Buddhist Scriptures are reflections of the Buddha and His followers explaining to others how one should have infinite compassion for others in all situations. My opinion on the matter does not differ from that of the Buddha's.
Sorry buddy, but unless you come up with a citation of a teacher or scripture that support your "babies are clean slate" statement (which you won't), there is not much point debating this issue with you.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
amanitamusc
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by amanitamusc »

Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:59 pm
amanitamusc wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:48 pm
Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:40 pm What many have accepted as the Buddhist paradigm of past-life karmic retribution is not at all correct. It has it's roots in ancient pseudo-Hindu misinterpretations of the Vedas, and that wrathful anger people have against wrongdoers that they expect them to be punished for after death because they don't seem to be punished for it in their current life. The punishment is there, but it doesn't carry on the way people who propigate the idea say it does. For example I may feel bad about the things I did in my past life, may have some people who hate me for it in this life, but the process of entering a womb provides that one is born innocent. Any karma accumulated after death would be dealt with by the guilty party before they enter a womb, by Yama and His servants in His abode or wherever He send the guilty party, and anyway, all of the Buddhas and protective Deities are here to help, and no one should be acting on bad karma--they should be acting on Metta. People who think there is any karmic retribution to children in the womb misunderstand reincarnation. Such suffering is evil and comes from senseless hate and ignorance by people who don't have full Maitri for others.

Just because we have different lives doesn't mean we aren't all equal. Babies are clean slates, but the sadness of the situation is that there are some demons who decided to hurt those children, and only the demonic entities of this world cause birth defects, disease, and death in infants, while all the while these children take birth to live out short lives just to grace the world with their Metta.

May all children have long and prosperous lives!
Can you post the Buddhist scriptures you are getting these idea's from?
All Buddhist Scriptures are reflections of the Buddha and His followers explaining to others how one should have infinite compassion for others in all situations. My opinion on the matter does not differ from that of the Buddha's.
Where in particular does it say this in Buddhist scripture? " Any karma accumulated after death would be dealt with by the guilty party before they enter a womb, by Yama and His servants in His abode or wherever He send the guilty party"
Last edited by amanitamusc on Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:33 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:08 pm “Clean slate” rejects the basic principle of karma.
We’d all be born fully enlightened,
Except that we wouldn’t be, because our parents, being Buddhas, wouldn’t be mating with each other either.
By clean slate I mean morally innocent. Not necessarily born a Buddha, though many babies are, from being Enlightened in their previous lives. Your karma is not beginingless, and the most basic premise of it comes from your constant interaction with the Saha world. It is possible to be free of karma and not be fully Enlightened, and it is possible to suffer greatly in the womb while being a fully Enlightened Buddha from a past life because of demons that desire to do evil to such a Buddha. It is extremely important to protect all developing infants from any harm.
I understand what you are saying.
It’s a very noble position to take (in its own way).
None of it is supported by any Buddhist teaching.
Be kindness
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Ayu
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Ayu »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:31 pm .. .

First of all, thee baby is not carried around in a jar. It is carried around in someone's body....
Very :good:
Only because nobody likes to count in the dangers of pregnancy this doesn't mean that they are not existent.

To think of the unborn child only without considering the physical welfare of the young mother and without spending any thought of the health and education of the born children is quite insane.

USA has the highest rate of maternal deaths due to pregnancy:
... Although the United States was spending more on healthcare than any other country in the world, more than two women died during childbirth every day, making maternal mortality in the United States the highest when compared to 49 other countries in the developed world. (...)
Maternal death can be traced to maternal health, which includes wellness throughout the entire pregnancy and access to basic care.[17] More than half of maternal deaths occur within the first 42 days after birth. Race, location, and financial status all contribute to how maternal mortality affects women across the country. ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materna ... ted_States

And this aspect still does not consider how heavy pregnancy, birth and childcare are for every woman. You could as well demand from the fathers to donate one of their own fingers for every child they produce. This would be a similar physical sacrifice the mothers give for their children.

I was sure all my life I would never do an abortion myself. But who am I (and who are the politicians on this globe) to demand from women to carry out any pregnancy under any circumstances?

Pro life activists should start to fight for proper healthcare and education for all mothers and children.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
tkp67
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by tkp67 »

There is a huge difference between advocating for women's right and rationalizing outcomes of conceptual scenarios.

The former is compassionate action the latter negative conceptual proliferation. It would be better to spend the same time practicing for sentient beings as to practice rationalization that supports ending sentient life is a practice in death.

Now if there were specific scenario in question with particulars to make such a decision that changes the dynamic.

Note all teachers mentioned in this from Buddha to HHDL say it is not right baring some particular exceptions. They seem to leave the phenomenon alone unless there is a particular instance where it needs to be considered. This is imho the right view on the right methodology lest one "pre-programs" their decision making process on the practice of conceptual proliferation.
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ayu wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:56 pm

...Pro life activists should start to fight for proper healthcare and education for all mothers and children.
And for a robust program of sex education and birth control, but they are always on the opposite end. Education and birth control will at least curb the number of abortions, whereas making abortion illegal does not seem to affect it's frequency, but only makes it more dangerous.

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/i ... -worldwide
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Malcolm
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Malcolm »

Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:33 pm it is possible to suffer greatly in the womb while being a fully Enlightened Buddha from a past life because of demons that desire to do evil to such a Buddha.
No. This is absolutely and completely incorrect.
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PeterC
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PeterC »

Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:40 pm What many have accepted as the Buddhist paradigm of past-life karmic retribution is not at all correct.
Well, you might disagree with it, but then you're not following the words of the Buddha. From the Sutra on the shorter analysis of karma:
The Blessed One said: "There is the case, student, where a woman or man is a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings... If, on the break-up of the body, after death — instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell — he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short life: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man, having abandoned the killing of living beings, abstains from killing living beings, and dwells with the rod laid down, the knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, & sympathetic for the welfare of all living beings. ... if he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is long-lived wherever reborn. ...

"There is the case where a woman or man is one who harms beings with his/her fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives. ... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is sickly wherever reborn. ...

"There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. ... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever reborn.
And so on. I picked this out of literally dozens of sutras that make similar points.

The workings of karma cannot be understood by the non-enlightened. From the Acintita Sutra:
"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four? ...
The determination of the results of karma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
You claim that:
Babies are clean slates, but the sadness of the situation is that there are some demons who decided to hurt those children, and only the demonic entities of this world cause birth defects, disease, and death in infants, while all the while these children take birth to live out short lives just to grace the world with their Metta.
But that is not what the Buddha says, and indeed is sharply contradicted by what the Buddha actually said.
May all children have long and prosperous lives!
Sure, we can hope for that, but it's not fully in their or our control, for the reasons outlined above.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Brahma wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:59 pm
All Buddhist Scriptures are reflections of the Buddha and His followers explaining to others how one should have infinite compassion for others in all situations. My opinion on the matter does not differ from that of the Buddha's.
Since a fetus does not experience physical sensation until the third trimester, physical suffering up to that point is not an issue.

If one regards abortion as causing the cessation of a being,
this is not supported by Buddhist theory. Rebirth is inevitable until one is free from the illusion of samsara.

One may argue that abortion prevents birth in the human realm, which is so difficult to obtain. But if the causes to be born (karma) in the human realm are there, then it can be argued that a rebirth as a human is therefore as certain as planting pumpkins seeds will produce pumpkins, and that one will take place in the human realm at some point, perhaps soon after.

What is being referred to as a “being”? It is the co-arising of mind with (because of grasping based on ignorance) elements coming together.

It can be argued that an abortion interrupts the coming together of physical aggregates. But the mind which arises along with that coming together neither increases or dininishes. And while the true nature of the mind itself is clear and luminous, “clean slate” describes exactly the opposite of the cause for rebirth. One can certainly liken the true nature of mind to a slate, but using that simile, that slate has been forever covered in chalk dust.
One’s Buddha nature can never be aborted.
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SunainaSinha
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Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by SunainaSinha »

The abortion debate deals with the rights and wrongs of deliberately ending a pregnancy before normal childbirth, killing the foetus in the process.

Abortion is a very painful topic for women and men who find themselves facing the moral dilemma of whether or not to terminate a pregnancy. It's one of the most polarising moral issues - most people are on one side or the other, very few are undecided. people should consult best doctor.
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Minobu
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abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by Minobu »

one of our DW members posted this in the Niciren section.
i never heard of a sutra that is anti abortion.

The Buddha on abortion and the Bodhi Mind:

The Buddha speaks directly about abortion in the Great [Mahayana] Dharani Sutra

"My circumstance is such that my family's condition does not allow me to bear any children. That is why I used medicine to murder the foetus, which was fully eight months old. The foetus that I aborted was fully grown with four healthy limbs and was complete with a human form."

"Later I met with a wise man who told me, 'People who have purposely aborted the foetus will be infected with serious illnesses in the present lifespan and receive the retribution of a short lifespan with very little blessing. After they have passed away, they will fall into the Avici Hell to experience terribly acute sufferings'."

"After listen to that, I was very frightened and I deeply regret what I have done. I only hope that the World Honoured One, with your strength of great kindness and compassion, will save me from falling into the deep pit. Please tell me the ways of liberation. Do allow me to leave the home life, so as to not undergo such acute sufferings."

The Thus Come One of Pervasive Lights and Proper Views said to Confusion, "There are five kinds of Evil Karma which are difficult to extinguish, even if one were to repent of them. What are the five kinds of offences? The first one is killing the father, the second one is killing the mother, the third one is abortion, the fourth one is to injure The Buddha, the fifth one is to create disharmony among the Sangha assemblies. These five types of evil and sinful karma are difficult to extinguish."

After listening to that, the woman Confusion wept sorrowfully with tears like falling rain. Sadly, she made obeisance to The Buddha. Then she fell down before The Buddha and again she begged, "The World Honoured One is of great kindness and compassion, who is able save all beings. I beg the World Honoured One to have pity on me and tell me the way to liberation."

The Thus Come One of Pervasive Lights and Proper Views told her, "You are supposed to fall down into The Avici Hell because of your evil karma, and experience the acute suffering without any respite. In the cold Hell, the offenders will encounter the severely cold wind and be tortured by the sudden chill. In the feverish Hell of heat, the offenders will experience sudden heat waves, which are brought about by the hot wind."

"In the Uninterrupted Hell, there is no alternating sufferings of sudden coldness or sudden heat as experienced here. But there is a great burning fire, which plunges from the top to the bottom of the hell, then again shoots up from the bottom to the top. The four walls are made of iron, and covered with iron nettings. The four gates, on the East, West, South and North, are also filled with great burning fire of karma."

"The length of time the offender is in the Uninterrupted Hell is eight million Yojanas. Even thought he is alone, his body still covers the whole hell fully. If there are more people, each of their bodies also pervasively fills up the whole hell."

"The body of the offenders is covered with great iron snakes. The suffering thus experienced by him is more severe than the great burning fire. Some of the iron snakes may enter his mouth and then come out from his eyes and ears."

"Or there are iron snakes which encircle his body fully. Great fire often bursts out from the limbs and joints of the offender. There are also the iron crows that peck and eat his flesh."

"There are also copper dogs which bite and chew his body. The hellish guards with bulls' heads hold the weapons and roar like thunder. With a harsh voice full of anger, they scolded…"

" 'You have purposely murdered the foetus, so you have to undergo this great torture from one kalpa to another kalpa without any respite!' If I were to lie to you about such torturing retribution, then I am not known as The Buddha."

"When the woman Confusion heard the teaching of The Buddha, she was so sorrowful that she fainted and fell on the floor. After some time, she gradually recovered, and again she asked, "World Honoured One! Is it the case that I alone will experience such torment? Or is this suffering to be experienced by all those women who have purposely aborted their foetus?"

"The Thus Come One Pervasive Light told the woman Confusion, 'Your foetus is fully grown like a human being. And its dwelling in the womb resembles that of a hell. It also resembles that of a great rock, which oppresses one's body. If the mother has partaken hot food, the foetus will feel as though it is dwelling in the Heated Hell. If the mother has taken cold food, the foetus will feel as though it is dwelling in the icy cold and chilling Hell. It is tormented by acute suffering the whole day"

"You are emotionally unstable because of the fire of delusion which gives rise to evil thoughts. That is why you have purposely taken the poison to abort the foetus."

"You have created such evil karma, so it is natural for you to fall into The Avici Hell. The offenders in the Uninterrupted Hells are your partners."

After hearing that, the women Confusion cried sorrowfully. Again she said to The Buddha, "Once I heard a wise man say, 'If we are able to encounter The Buddha, or pure Sangha members, whatever evil offences that we have created will be extinguished, if we seek to repent and reform sincerely'."

" Even when such a man has already passed away and entered the hells, if the relatives who are still alive are able to cultivate goodness and small blessing on his behalf, the dead one will be able to get a rebirth in the heavens!' Are there really such happenings? I beg The World Honoured One to explain this to me!"

The Thus Come One Pervasive Lights and Proper Views told the Woman Confusion, "It is true. If there is a living being who has committed all kinds of offences, but was able to encounter The Buddha and the members of the pure Sangha assembly, to repent sincerely and never to commit any more offences, then his sinful karma will be extinguished."

"Even if he has passed away, but his family and relatives are able to pay respect and make obeisance to The Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. If, within the seven days, they are able to read and chant ,on behalf of him, the Sutra of Great Vehicle, and to make offerings to the Triple Jewels with fragrant incense and flowers, the messenger from the Dark Realm will carry the Spiritual Banner of Five Colours, and go to the hall of The King Yama. There troops of ghosts will stand around the front and back of the Banner. They will sing and praise the dead man. With a gentle and subtly wonderful voice, they report to King Yama, 'The dead man has accumulated lots of merits!"

"When King Yama sees the arrival of the Banner of five colours, he is greatly happy and says aloud, 'May my body which is full of offences be like him, in order to accumulate all merits.' "

"Immediately, the hells are transformed into pure streams. The hills of knives and the trees of swords are transformed into lotuses. All the offenders feel refresh and blissful."

"If there is another dead man who does not have faith in the Buddha Dharma, who does not read and chant the Sutra of Great Vehicle, whose mind has a lack of filial piety, respectfulness, kindness and compassion, who (instead) believes in deviant paths and evil views. And if, within the seven days, there is no next of kin who is alive to perform goodness and blessings on his behalf., then the messenger from the dark realm will hold the Black Banner, together with innumerable evil ghosts, who make the following report to King Yama, 'The dead one has accumulated lots of evil deeds.' "

When King Yama sees the Black Banner, he gets angry immediately. All the halls and houses vibrate under his thunder-like harsh voice. The offender is immediately sent down to the eighteen layers of hells."

"The offender is forced to climb the trees of swords and hills of knives. Or he is forced to lie on the iron bed, to embrace the bronze pillar, or his tongue is being pulled out and ploughed by a bull. Or his body is being beaten by stony rod, his bones and flesh are grind to powder by a stone grinder."

"In a single day, there are millions of occurrences of birth and death. And then the offender will repeatedly fall into the Avici Hell, to experience acute suffering from one kalpa to another without respite."

Before The Thus Come One Pervasive Lights And Proper Views had finished His teaching, suddenly there arose from the empty space a great thunderous roar of harsh and evil voices, which called out to the woman Confusion, "You have purposely murdered the foetus. You should receive the retribution of a short life. I am the messenger of the ghostly troop, here to catch you to settle the case."

The woman Confusion was frightened and lost. She caught hold of the feet of The Thus Come One and wept. She begged, "May The World Honoured One widely propound the Great Dharma Store of The Buddhas for me, and the way to extinguish all sinful offences. Only then will I die in peace!"

At that time, The Thus Come One Pervasive Lights and Proper Views, with the awesome spiritual strength of The Buddha, told the ghost messenger, "Ghastly ghost of impermanence, I am now going to teach the woman Confusion on the Sutra of Longevity and the extinction of offences. Please wait for a while. Naturally there will be a change in circumstances."

"You also should pay attention and listen carefully. I will also tell you the Secret Dharma Door which was taught by The Buddhas in the past, The Sutra of the extinction of offences and the prolongation of lifespan, in order to help you all to stay away from the evil paths."

The Buddha said, "Confusion, you should know that the ghastly ghost of Impermanence does not give any special favours to people. Even if you use innumerable amounts of gold, silver, lapis lazuli, beryl, red pearls, carnelian and other jewelry to bribe him in exchange of your life, it will still be in vain."

"Even people who are in honourable positions, such as The King, the princes, great officers, respectable elder and others, with their awesome spiritual strength, will still be unable to escape the ghastly ghost of impermanence who comes to claim their lives."

"Confusion, you should know that only the word 'Buddha' is able to sever the suffering of death. Confusion, there are two types of people who are very rare to be found. They are like the Udumbara Flowers which rarely bloom."

"The first type refers to those people who never practise any evil dharma, nor commit any karmic offences. The second type refers to those who are able to repent and reform when they realise their offences."

"People like these are rare and most precious. As you are able to repent sincerely before me, I will of course teach you The Sutra of Longevity and The Extinction of Offences, in order to free you from the suffering of being chased and caught by the evil ghost of impermanence."

"Confusion, let me tell you. In the future World of Five Turbidities, if there are people who kill the father, harm the mother, who purposely abort the foetus, who destroy The Buddha's Pagoda and Temple…"

"Who shed The Buddha's Blood, who create disharmony among The Sangha and others, they have created the five unwholesome deep offences and will surely fall into the Uninterrupted Hell to suffer the acute torments."

"If these beings who have committed the five unwholesome offences are able to accept, uphold this Sutra of Longevity and The Extinction of Offences, to write it down, read and memorize it, or copy it down by themselves, or ask others to copy the Sutra, they will be able to put an end to their offences, and be born in the Brahman Heaven to enjoy the heavenly blessing."

"Isn't that a better chance for you to extinguish your evil karma, as you are able to meet me personally at this time? Luckily, you have already cultivated lots of good roots in innumerable long kalpas past. In addition, you are eloquent in asking questions, besides repenting and reforming sincerely."

"So, not long from now, you will be able to turn the Unsurpassed Dharma Wheel, and cross over limitless great seas of birth and death. You will be able to fight against the Heavenly Demon Papiyan and destroy the Banner of Victory which was erected by him. You should listen wholeheartedly. I will teach you once the Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation, which was taught by The Buddhas in the past."

"All the living beings are originally pure. But, the arising of a single false thought out of delusion in the past leads to the creation of activities. Because of activities, there create karmic forces, and hence leads to the arising of consciousness to enter the womb. The consciousness that enters the womb will lead to the formation of a foetus presently. When there is a foetus, it is then complete with the six roots such as eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind."

"After leaving the womb, the six roots will experience the six senses of touch. The six senses of touch will give rise to six kinds of feelings. When there is feeling, love will arise. When there is love, the feeling of attachment will arise. Once there is attachment, a man will try to fight to possess. When there is fighting for possession, it will give rise to future karmic causes."

"When there are the future karmic causes, a man will experience birth in the future. When there is birth, it will naturally lead to the process of old age and death, and also all the worries, sorrows, sufferings and torments. This is known as the Door Which Is Accordance with the Production of Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation."

"If there is no false thought because of delusion, then from where will activities and karmic deeds arise? If there is no activity and Karmic deeds, from where will there be the entering of womb by consciousness? When there is no consciousness to enter the womb,what then will give rise to a foetus, the form of a body?"

"When there is no feeling, there is no love. Without love, attachment to possession will not arise. When there is no attachment to possession, there are no more karmic causes for future birth…"

"When there is no karmic cause for the future birth, there is no more birth in the future. Without birth, there is also no old age and death. And the worries, sorrows, sufferings and Extinction of the Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation."

"Confusion, you should know that all the living beings are unable to contemplate the Dharma of Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation, and so they revolve and suffer in the seas of birth and death. If there is a man who is able to contemplate the Dharma of Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation, then he is able to see the Reality of Form Dharma. If a man is able to see the Reality of Form Dharma, he indeed sees The Buddha."

"When a man sees The Buddha, he is able to see The Buddha Nature. Why did I say so? Because all The Buddhas also base on the Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation as The Dharma Nature. Now that you are able to listen to the Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation from me, you will obtain the Pure Buddha Nature. You are suitable to be the Dharma Vessel in the Door of The Buddha."

"Now I will again tell you the only True Path. You should give thought to protect single mindfulness. The single mindfulness is known as The Bodhi Mind. The Bodhi Mind is also known as The Mind of the Great Vehicle."

"Because the root nature of the living beings is different, so all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas teach and differentiate the Three Vehicles. You should constantly be mindful, and look after the Bodhi Mind. Never should you forget it."

"Even if your body is burnt by the five skandas of forms, feelings, thoughts, activities and consciousness, is being swallowed and eaten by the four snakes of earth, water, fire and wind, is being attacked by the three poisoning of greed, hatred and delusion, is being invaded by the six thieves of forms, sounds, fragrance, tastes, senses of touch and dharma, and is being harmed and tormented by the devils and demons, you should remain unmoving and never should you change your Bodhi Mind."

"With the Bodhi Mind, your body will be as hard and firm as the Vajra. Your mind will resemble the empty space, where no one can really harm and destroy it."

"If the Bodhi Mind is firm and solid, it is replete with the four virtues of Nirvana, namely, Permanence, Bliss, True Self and purity. It will help us to attain The Unsurpassed Perfect Enlightenment."

"When you are replete with four virtues of Nirvana, you will be liberated from the conditions of birth, old age, sickness and death, and all the realms of hells. Then the ghastly ghost of Impermanence will naturally have no way to chase and catch hold of you to settle the case."

After The Buddha had finished His Teaching, the messenger of the ghosts who dwell in the empty space gave rise to the following thought, "Then the World Honoured One has said that even the hells could also be transformed into Pure Lotus Pond. Why then do I not renounce the state of the ghost realm?"

Then he told the woman, Confusion, "After you have certified to the sagely path, please do not forget to ferry me over!"

After that, The Thus Come One of Pervasive Lights and Proper Views again taught the woman, Confusion, "I have already taught you the Dharma of Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation. Now I will teach you also The Six Paramitas, which are also practised by the Bodhisattvas."

"What are the Six Paramitas? The first Paramita is to give expansively. Giving helps us to cross over the feelings of greed and stinginess. The second Paramita is to uphold the precepts firmly. By doing so, we will cross over wrong actions and intentions; of being heedless in committing offences."

"The third Paramita is to be patient always. Such practice will cross over the feelings of hatred and anger. The fourth Paramita is to be diligent constantly. A man who is diligent will cross over laxity and heedlessness. The fifth Paramita is to cultivate concentration diligently. Concentration helps to cross over confusion."

"The sixth Paramita is to clearly penetrate wisdom. A wise man will cross over his delusion and ignorance. When a man is able to uphold the six paramitas fully and completely, only then will he arrive at the other shore. He should never even neglect any one of the Paramitas. There is also a verse on the accomplishment of Buddhahood by The Buddhas in the past."

"All activities are impermanent.
They are the dharma of birth and death.
When there is no more birth and death, a man will enjoy the bliss of quietude and extinction.
You should uphold and practise this dharma joyfully."

At that time, the woman Confusion was full of happiness after listening to the Buddha Dharma. Her heart opened up, and became clear and pure. She understood deeply, and had an awakening to the Dharma. With the endowment of the spiritual strength of The Buddha, she rose up to the empty space, and reached a height of seven times the height of a Tor-Lo tree, and sat in meditation peacefully in the empty space."


from here
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 57#p556057
we get this and i was wondering if this is real .
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 3261
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: The Great Abortion Debate

Post by Minobu »

i forgot about this thread.
i posted a new topic it should be moved here maybe...
it's a sutra on anti abortion...i don't know if it is real..no one has disputed it yet so here have a look


https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 30#p556130
The Buddha on abortion and the Bodhi Mind:

The Buddha speaks directly about abortion in the Great [Mahayana] Dharani Sutra

"My circumstance is such that my family's condition does not allow me to bear any children. That is why I used medicine to murder the foetus, which was fully eight months old. The foetus that I aborted was fully grown with four healthy limbs and was complete with a human form."

"Later I met with a wise man who told me, 'People who have purposely aborted the foetus will be infected with serious illnesses in the present lifespan and receive the retribution of a short lifespan with very little blessing. After they have passed away, they will fall into the Avici Hell to experience terribly acute sufferings'."

"After listen to that, I was very frightened and I deeply regret what I have done. I only hope that the World Honoured One, with your strength of great kindness and compassion, will save me from falling into the deep pit. Please tell me the ways of liberation. Do allow me to leave the home life, so as to not undergo such acute sufferings."

The Thus Come One of Pervasive Lights and Proper Views said to Confusion, "There are five kinds of Evil Karma which are difficult to extinguish, even if one were to repent of them. What are the five kinds of offences? The first one is killing the father, the second one is killing the mother, the third one is abortion, the fourth one is to injure The Buddha, the fifth one is to create disharmony among the Sangha assemblies. These five types of evil and sinful karma are difficult to extinguish."

After listening to that, the woman Confusion wept sorrowfully with tears like falling rain. Sadly, she made obeisance to The Buddha. Then she fell down before The Buddha and again she begged, "The World Honoured One is of great kindness and compassion, who is able save all beings. I beg the World Honoured One to have pity on me and tell me the way to liberation."

The Thus Come One of Pervasive Lights and Proper Views told her, "You are supposed to fall down into The Avici Hell because of your evil karma, and experience the acute suffering without any respite. In the cold Hell, the offenders will encounter the severely cold wind and be tortured by the sudden chill. In the feverish Hell of heat, the offenders will experience sudden heat waves, which are brought about by the hot wind."

"In the Uninterrupted Hell, there is no alternating sufferings of sudden coldness or sudden heat as experienced here. But there is a great burning fire, which plunges from the top to the bottom of the hell, then again shoots up from the bottom to the top. The four walls are made of iron, and covered with iron nettings. The four gates, on the East, West, South and North, are also filled with great burning fire of karma."

"The length of time the offender is in the Uninterrupted Hell is eight million Yojanas. Even thought he is alone, his body still covers the whole hell fully. If there are more people, each of their bodies also pervasively fills up the whole hell."

"The body of the offenders is covered with great iron snakes. The suffering thus experienced by him is more severe than the great burning fire. Some of the iron snakes may enter his mouth and then come out from his eyes and ears."

"Or there are iron snakes which encircle his body fully. Great fire often bursts out from the limbs and joints of the offender. There are also the iron crows that peck and eat his flesh."

"There are also copper dogs which bite and chew his body. The hellish guards with bulls' heads hold the weapons and roar like thunder. With a harsh voice full of anger, they scolded…"

" 'You have purposely murdered the foetus, so you have to undergo this great torture from one kalpa to another kalpa without any respite!' If I were to lie to you about such torturing retribution, then I am not known as The Buddha."

"When the woman Confusion heard the teaching of The Buddha, she was so sorrowful that she fainted and fell on the floor. After some time, she gradually recovered, and again she asked, "World Honoured One! Is it the case that I alone will experience such torment? Or is this suffering to be experienced by all those women who have purposely aborted their foetus?"

"The Thus Come One Pervasive Light told the woman Confusion, 'Your foetus is fully grown like a human being. And its dwelling in the womb resembles that of a hell. It also resembles that of a great rock, which oppresses one's body. If the mother has partaken hot food, the foetus will feel as though it is dwelling in the Heated Hell. If the mother has taken cold food, the foetus will feel as though it is dwelling in the icy cold and chilling Hell. It is tormented by acute suffering the whole day"

"You are emotionally unstable because of the fire of delusion which gives rise to evil thoughts. That is why you have purposely taken the poison to abort the foetus."

"You have created such evil karma, so it is natural for you to fall into The Avici Hell. The offenders in the Uninterrupted Hells are your partners."

After hearing that, the women Confusion cried sorrowfully. Again she said to The Buddha, "Once I heard a wise man say, 'If we are able to encounter The Buddha, or pure Sangha members, whatever evil offences that we have created will be extinguished, if we seek to repent and reform sincerely'."

" Even when such a man has already passed away and entered the hells, if the relatives who are still alive are able to cultivate goodness and small blessing on his behalf, the dead one will be able to get a rebirth in the heavens!' Are there really such happenings? I beg The World Honoured One to explain this to me!"

The Thus Come One Pervasive Lights and Proper Views told the Woman Confusion, "It is true. If there is a living being who has committed all kinds of offences, but was able to encounter The Buddha and the members of the pure Sangha assembly, to repent sincerely and never to commit any more offences, then his sinful karma will be extinguished."

"Even if he has passed away, but his family and relatives are able to pay respect and make obeisance to The Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. If, within the seven days, they are able to read and chant ,on behalf of him, the Sutra of Great Vehicle, and to make offerings to the Triple Jewels with fragrant incense and flowers, the messenger from the Dark Realm will carry the Spiritual Banner of Five Colours, and go to the hall of The King Yama. There troops of ghosts will stand around the front and back of the Banner. They will sing and praise the dead man. With a gentle and subtly wonderful voice, they report to King Yama, 'The dead man has accumulated lots of merits!"

"When King Yama sees the arrival of the Banner of five colours, he is greatly happy and says aloud, 'May my body which is full of offences be like him, in order to accumulate all merits.' "

"Immediately, the hells are transformed into pure streams. The hills of knives and the trees of swords are transformed into lotuses. All the offenders feel refresh and blissful."

"If there is another dead man who does not have faith in the Buddha Dharma, who does not read and chant the Sutra of Great Vehicle, whose mind has a lack of filial piety, respectfulness, kindness and compassion, who (instead) believes in deviant paths and evil views. And if, within the seven days, there is no next of kin who is alive to perform goodness and blessings on his behalf., then the messenger from the dark realm will hold the Black Banner, together with innumerable evil ghosts, who make the following report to King Yama, 'The dead one has accumulated lots of evil deeds.' "

When King Yama sees the Black Banner, he gets angry immediately. All the halls and houses vibrate under his thunder-like harsh voice. The offender is immediately sent down to the eighteen layers of hells."

"The offender is forced to climb the trees of swords and hills of knives. Or he is forced to lie on the iron bed, to embrace the bronze pillar, or his tongue is being pulled out and ploughed by a bull. Or his body is being beaten by stony rod, his bones and flesh are grind to powder by a stone grinder."

"In a single day, there are millions of occurrences of birth and death. And then the offender will repeatedly fall into the Avici Hell, to experience acute suffering from one kalpa to another without respite."

Before The Thus Come One Pervasive Lights And Proper Views had finished His teaching, suddenly there arose from the empty space a great thunderous roar of harsh and evil voices, which called out to the woman Confusion, "You have purposely murdered the foetus. You should receive the retribution of a short life. I am the messenger of the ghostly troop, here to catch you to settle the case."

The woman Confusion was frightened and lost. She caught hold of the feet of The Thus Come One and wept. She begged, "May The World Honoured One widely propound the Great Dharma Store of The Buddhas for me, and the way to extinguish all sinful offences. Only then will I die in peace!"

At that time, The Thus Come One Pervasive Lights and Proper Views, with the awesome spiritual strength of The Buddha, told the ghost messenger, "Ghastly ghost of impermanence, I am now going to teach the woman Confusion on the Sutra of Longevity and the extinction of offences. Please wait for a while. Naturally there will be a change in circumstances."

"You also should pay attention and listen carefully. I will also tell you the Secret Dharma Door which was taught by The Buddhas in the past, The Sutra of the extinction of offences and the prolongation of lifespan, in order to help you all to stay away from the evil paths."

The Buddha said, "Confusion, you should know that the ghastly ghost of Impermanence does not give any special favours to people. Even if you use innumerable amounts of gold, silver, lapis lazuli, beryl, red pearls, carnelian and other jewelry to bribe him in exchange of your life, it will still be in vain."

"Even people who are in honourable positions, such as The King, the princes, great officers, respectable elder and others, with their awesome spiritual strength, will still be unable to escape the ghastly ghost of impermanence who comes to claim their lives."

"Confusion, you should know that only the word 'Buddha' is able to sever the suffering of death. Confusion, there are two types of people who are very rare to be found. They are like the Udumbara Flowers which rarely bloom."

"The first type refers to those people who never practise any evil dharma, nor commit any karmic offences. The second type refers to those who are able to repent and reform when they realise their offences."

"People like these are rare and most precious. As you are able to repent sincerely before me, I will of course teach you The Sutra of Longevity and The Extinction of Offences, in order to free you from the suffering of being chased and caught by the evil ghost of impermanence."

"Confusion, let me tell you. In the future World of Five Turbidities, if there are people who kill the father, harm the mother, who purposely abort the foetus, who destroy The Buddha's Pagoda and Temple…"

"Who shed The Buddha's Blood, who create disharmony among The Sangha and others, they have created the five unwholesome deep offences and will surely fall into the Uninterrupted Hell to suffer the acute torments."

"If these beings who have committed the five unwholesome offences are able to accept, uphold this Sutra of Longevity and The Extinction of Offences, to write it down, read and memorize it, or copy it down by themselves, or ask others to copy the Sutra, they will be able to put an end to their offences, and be born in the Brahman Heaven to enjoy the heavenly blessing."

"Isn't that a better chance for you to extinguish your evil karma, as you are able to meet me personally at this time? Luckily, you have already cultivated lots of good roots in innumerable long kalpas past. In addition, you are eloquent in asking questions, besides repenting and reforming sincerely."

"So, not long from now, you will be able to turn the Unsurpassed Dharma Wheel, and cross over limitless great seas of birth and death. You will be able to fight against the Heavenly Demon Papiyan and destroy the Banner of Victory which was erected by him. You should listen wholeheartedly. I will teach you once the Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation, which was taught by The Buddhas in the past."

"All the living beings are originally pure. But, the arising of a single false thought out of delusion in the past leads to the creation of activities. Because of activities, there create karmic forces, and hence leads to the arising of consciousness to enter the womb. The consciousness that enters the womb will lead to the formation of a foetus presently. When there is a foetus, it is then complete with the six roots such as eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind."

"After leaving the womb, the six roots will experience the six senses of touch. The six senses of touch will give rise to six kinds of feelings. When there is feeling, love will arise. When there is love, the feeling of attachment will arise. Once there is attachment, a man will try to fight to possess. When there is fighting for possession, it will give rise to future karmic causes."

"When there are the future karmic causes, a man will experience birth in the future. When there is birth, it will naturally lead to the process of old age and death, and also all the worries, sorrows, sufferings and torments. This is known as the Door Which Is Accordance with the Production of Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation."

"If there is no false thought because of delusion, then from where will activities and karmic deeds arise? If there is no activity and Karmic deeds, from where will there be the entering of womb by consciousness? When there is no consciousness to enter the womb,what then will give rise to a foetus, the form of a body?"

"When there is no feeling, there is no love. Without love, attachment to possession will not arise. When there is no attachment to possession, there are no more karmic causes for future birth…"

"When there is no karmic cause for the future birth, there is no more birth in the future. Without birth, there is also no old age and death. And the worries, sorrows, sufferings and Extinction of the Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation."

"Confusion, you should know that all the living beings are unable to contemplate the Dharma of Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation, and so they revolve and suffer in the seas of birth and death. If there is a man who is able to contemplate the Dharma of Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation, then he is able to see the Reality of Form Dharma. If a man is able to see the Reality of Form Dharma, he indeed sees The Buddha."

"When a man sees The Buddha, he is able to see The Buddha Nature. Why did I say so? Because all The Buddhas also base on the Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation as The Dharma Nature. Now that you are able to listen to the Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation from me, you will obtain the Pure Buddha Nature. You are suitable to be the Dharma Vessel in the Door of The Buddha."

"Now I will again tell you the only True Path. You should give thought to protect single mindfulness. The single mindfulness is known as The Bodhi Mind. The Bodhi Mind is also known as The Mind of the Great Vehicle."

"Because the root nature of the living beings is different, so all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas teach and differentiate the Three Vehicles. You should constantly be mindful, and look after the Bodhi Mind. Never should you forget it."

"Even if your body is burnt by the five skandas of forms, feelings, thoughts, activities and consciousness, is being swallowed and eaten by the four snakes of earth, water, fire and wind, is being attacked by the three poisoning of greed, hatred and delusion, is being invaded by the six thieves of forms, sounds, fragrance, tastes, senses of touch and dharma, and is being harmed and tormented by the devils and demons, you should remain unmoving and never should you change your Bodhi Mind."

"With the Bodhi Mind, your body will be as hard and firm as the Vajra. Your mind will resemble the empty space, where no one can really harm and destroy it."

"If the Bodhi Mind is firm and solid, it is replete with the four virtues of Nirvana, namely, Permanence, Bliss, True Self and purity. It will help us to attain The Unsurpassed Perfect Enlightenment."

"When you are replete with four virtues of Nirvana, you will be liberated from the conditions of birth, old age, sickness and death, and all the realms of hells. Then the ghastly ghost of Impermanence will naturally have no way to chase and catch hold of you to settle the case."

After The Buddha had finished His Teaching, the messenger of the ghosts who dwell in the empty space gave rise to the following thought, "Then the World Honoured One has said that even the hells could also be transformed into Pure Lotus Pond. Why then do I not renounce the state of the ghost realm?"

Then he told the woman, Confusion, "After you have certified to the sagely path, please do not forget to ferry me over!"

After that, The Thus Come One of Pervasive Lights and Proper Views again taught the woman, Confusion, "I have already taught you the Dharma of Twelve Conditioned Links of Causation. Now I will teach you also The Six Paramitas, which are also practised by the Bodhisattvas."

"What are the Six Paramitas? The first Paramita is to give expansively. Giving helps us to cross over the feelings of greed and stinginess. The second Paramita is to uphold the precepts firmly. By doing so, we will cross over wrong actions and intentions; of being heedless in committing offences."

"The third Paramita is to be patient always. Such practice will cross over the feelings of hatred and anger. The fourth Paramita is to be diligent constantly. A man who is diligent will cross over laxity and heedlessness. The fifth Paramita is to cultivate concentration diligently. Concentration helps to cross over confusion."

"The sixth Paramita is to clearly penetrate wisdom. A wise man will cross over his delusion and ignorance. When a man is able to uphold the six paramitas fully and completely, only then will he arrive at the other shore. He should never even neglect any one of the Paramitas. There is also a verse on the accomplishment of Buddhahood by The Buddhas in the past."

"All activities are impermanent.
They are the dharma of birth and death.
When there is no more birth and death, a man will enjoy the bliss of quietude and extinction.
You should uphold and practise this dharma joyfully."

At that time, the woman Confusion was full of happiness after listening to the Buddha Dharma. Her heart opened up, and became clear and pure. She understood deeply, and had an awakening to the Dharma. With the endowment of the spiritual strength of The Buddha, she rose up to the empty space, and reached a height of seven times the height of a Tor-Lo tree, and sat in meditation peacefully in the empty space."
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PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4084
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Well, it all works out for her in the end.
Be kindness
tingdzin
Posts: 1347
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: abortion sutra/real or...?

Post by tingdzin »

The question of whether a given sutra is "real", i.e. authentic is never one which can be answered simply. I personally have never seen this one before, but there are myriads of sutras I am not famiilar with. Hang around this board much and you will see that questions of authenticity are often debated. As for the question of abortion in Buddhism, there is a vast literature on the subject that can probably be found on the net without too much trouble.
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