Alcohol

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Pureland123
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Alcohol

Post by Pureland123 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:53 pm

Can I drink alcohol if I am legal of age and using it for good reasons in a safe environment.


:guns: :guns: :thanks:

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Paul
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Paul » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:11 am

As long as you don't have vows, why not?

EDIT:

My main teacher says "drink, not drunk" - I think that's good advice. Getting wasted is a terrible idea. :cheers:
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lorem
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Re: Alcohol

Post by lorem » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:25 am

Depends upon your situation. I think H H Dudjom Rinpoche said ngagpas could drink one glass of alcohol. Gampopa let the three men from Kham drink three kapalas full of chang.

Ask your mentor probably the best bet.
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shaunc
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Re: Alcohol

Post by shaunc » Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:28 am

The 5 precepts which most lay followers are expected to observe say not. As a general rule of thumb the 5th precept advises us against the use of alcohol & other drugs likely to cause heedlesness. Tobacco & caffeine are not usually considered part of this precept because although they are both addictive drugs they don't cau the user to become heedless.

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LastLegend
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Re: Alcohol

Post by LastLegend » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:05 am

I think once in awhile socially is okay. Drinking too much will cloud your mind, not good for practice.
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Make personal specific vows to [for example, absorb karma of sentient beings], so that they can reach enlightenment quickly. With deep faith and trust, effects will be experienced immediately. If we can’t fulfill our vows, no problem Buddhas will help us do us; thus generate merit and strength to speed us up and lead us straight to unborn wisdom. This is not a matter of truth or not but faith and willingness. That’s what I was taught. Be aware take karma of sentient beings can be overwhelming. Only do what we are capable of.

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Ayu
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Ayu » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:11 am

shaunc wrote:The 5 precepts which most lay followers are expected to observe say not. As a general rule of thumb the 5th precept advises us against the use of alcohol & other drugs likely to cause heedlesness. Tobacco & caffeine are not usually considered part of this precept because although they are both addictive drugs they don't cau the user to become heedless.
I heard, the five percepts could be lessened. It is possible to take only three (no killing, no stealing, no harming by sex) or four (+ no lie). The fifth is regarded as an auxiliary rule - drinking alkohol may have not much harm in itsself but there are many bad appearances coming out of it's use i.e. abuse.

Also it is possible to train this by taking 8 vows for one day (Mahayana-Poshada-vows for 24 hours).

So the decision about drinking alcohol depends:
- on the person (is s/he at risk for adiction due to mental, physical or social circumstances?)
- on the choosen form of life as monk/nun or lay person
- and on the regular sadhana practice s/he does. When I started to do Vajrayana practice, I soon detected an incompability of alcohol with my meditation. My nervous system got seriously disturbed by drinking even small amounts. One glass of wine could destroy my sadhana for two days. That's why "no alcohol" is my personal full-hearted decision. Nobody needs to forbid or allow it to me.

I think, this is a personal decision for everyone and it has to be taken genuinely.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Grigoris
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:37 am

shaunc wrote:Tobacco & caffeine are not usually considered part of this precept because although they are both addictive drugs they don't cau the user to become heedless.
"Not usually" is the correct way to describe it. Some teachers are adamantly against their use. Especially tobacco.

But really, stinking ones head in a functioning microwave oven is also not against the precepts, but I personally wouldn't do it. ;)

PS Coffee and cigarettes do cause the user to become heedless. Without a doubt. Ever tried to talk to a coffee addict before they have had their morning dose? What about a nicotine addict that has run out of tobacco? Let's not kid ourselves, they are both dangerous and addictive drugs that directly influence behaviour.
Last edited by Grigoris on Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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lelopa
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Re: Alcohol

Post by lelopa » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:46 am

once upon a time a monk (under violent pressure) should chose one of the 5 precepts to break.
he thought drinking alcohol is not so "heavy" for a monk as killing, having sex, or stealing something.
So he was drunk after a while and very attracted to a girl...
for her he stole a hen & killed it for a nice meal - after the meal they had sex together - afterwards he was lying about what was happening...

so maybe it depents much on the capacity of the "drinker"




and please excuse my bad english
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Mkoll
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Mkoll » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:40 pm

Ayu wrote:
shaunc wrote:The 5 precepts which most lay followers are expected to observe say not. As a general rule of thumb the 5th precept advises us against the use of alcohol & other drugs likely to cause heedlesness. Tobacco & caffeine are not usually considered part of this precept because although they are both addictive drugs they don't cau the user to become heedless.
I heard, the five percepts could be lessened. It is possible to take only three (no killing, no stealing, no harming by sex) or four (+ no lie). The fifth is regarded as an auxiliary rule - drinking alkohol may have not much harm in itsself but there are many bad appearances coming out of it's use i.e. abuse.

Also it is possible to train this by taking 8 vows for one day (Mahayana-Poshada-vows for 24 hours).

So the decision about drinking alcohol depends:
- on the person (is s/he at risk for adiction due to mental, physical or social circumstances?)
- on the choosen form of life as monk/nun or lay person
- and on the regular sadhana practice s/he does. When I started to do Vajrayana practice, I soon detected an incompability of alcohol with my meditation. My nervous system got seriously disturbed by drinking even small amounts. One glass of wine could destroy my sadhana for two days. That's why "no alcohol" is my personal full-hearted decision. Nobody needs to forbid or allow it to me.

I think, this is a personal decision for everyone and it has to be taken genuinely.
It should be kept in mind that none of the precepts are rules as in "laws." There is no outside force compelling you to follow them. I also don't think it's an auxiliary precept. Where does that idea come from? Regardless, if one is only willing to take 3 or 4 precepts in their situation, that is better than taking none. But 5 is ideal and I would hope we could all agree on that!
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Ayu
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Ayu » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:01 pm

Mkoll wrote: I also don't think it's an auxiliary precept. Where does that idea come from? Regardless, if one is only willing to take 3 or 4 precepts in their situation, that is better than taking none. But 5 is ideal and I would hope we could all agree on that!
For sure I agree. And also I don't think we disagree on this "auxiliary" precept. If you don't understand what I mean, it must be an error in translation. I've got this word from my dictionary. I heard it from the translator: "eher ein Nebengelübde", but it was said by my teacher Geshe Palden Öser (Gelug) in Tibetean...
The meaning was: Because it is possible to take only one, three or four silas and because the sila about alcohol is only in fifth place, it is not as severe as killing. But that does not mean it wasn't severe at all.
They take the fifth sila very seriously also.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Mkoll
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Mkoll » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:47 pm

Ayu wrote:
Mkoll wrote: I also don't think it's an auxiliary precept. Where does that idea come from? Regardless, if one is only willing to take 3 or 4 precepts in their situation, that is better than taking none. But 5 is ideal and I would hope we could all agree on that!
For sure I agree. And also I don't think we disagree on this "auxiliary" precept. If you don't understand what I mean, it must be an error in translation. I've got this word from my dictionary. I heard it from the translator: "eher ein Nebengelübde", but it was said by my teacher Geshe Palden Öser (Gelug) in Tibetean...
The meaning was: Because it is possible to take only one, three or four silas and because the sila about alcohol is only in fifth place, it is not as severe as killing. But that does not mean it wasn't severe at all.
They take the fifth sila very seriously also.
I agree: we don't disagree. :mrgreen:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Tongnyid Dorje » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:47 pm

One evening, when we were relaxing with our lama after teachings, we used to drink a red wine together. That time i was drinking beer. Lama asked me, how many beers I use to take in one evening. I said, it depends, sometimes two, but in friday even five. He looked at me and said "Ok, it is ok." :) He also said, that ngakpa should drink a kapala of wine per day. When I was visiting him in India, he personaly took care so I had my beer every evening. :rolling:

I think, generally, its about not to get drunk. He said its ok to drink alcohol, but be carefull, that alcohol is not drinking us.

:namaste:

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Grigoris
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Grigoris » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:49 pm

Pureland123 wrote:... using it for good reasons...
Apart from medical or ritual purposes, what else is a "good reason" to drink alcohol?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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lelopa
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Re: Alcohol

Post by lelopa » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:04 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Pureland123 wrote:... using it for good reasons...
Apart from medical or ritual purposes, what else is a "good reason" to drink alcohol?
i personally think one good reason is to get drunk -
one good reason to avoid it is you'll get drunk
Last edited by lelopa on Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dan74
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Dan74 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:22 pm

Pureland123 wrote:Can I drink alcohol if I am legal of age and using it for good reasons in a safe environment.


:guns: :guns: :thanks:
To be honest, I don't really see how dulling the mind can really be beneficial for cultivation. Sure in some cultures it's a social lubricant and people tend to drink in moderation, while for others, it makes the pain more bearable. I confess that I still drink sometimes, so no high moral ground here, but I don't see how it is a good thing, TBH. Rather I see it (in my case) as mildly harmful.

One anecdote comes to mind. Kusan Sunim, a great contemporary Korean master, on his visit to the US was invited to a party. Before long wine was poured around and the hosts didn't leave him out either. Everybody toasted and so did he! He made no fuss and nobody paid attention to the fact that he didn't drink a drop.

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LastLegend
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Re: Alcohol

Post by LastLegend » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:52 pm

It seems like alcohol is the problem. I can take your problem away. Send me your alcohol.
Clear!
Make personal specific vows to [for example, absorb karma of sentient beings], so that they can reach enlightenment quickly. With deep faith and trust, effects will be experienced immediately. If we can’t fulfill our vows, no problem Buddhas will help us do us; thus generate merit and strength to speed us up and lead us straight to unborn wisdom. This is not a matter of truth or not but faith and willingness. That’s what I was taught. Be aware take karma of sentient beings can be overwhelming. Only do what we are capable of.

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Grigoris
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:58 pm

lelopa wrote:i personally think one good reason is to get drunk...
Sounds like a bad reason to drink, not a good one.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Ayu
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Ayu » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:00 pm

LastLegend wrote:It seems like alcohol is the problem. I can take your problem away. Send me your alcohol.
An alcholic, when he first time wanted to talk about his desease, told me:
"I don't have any problem with alcohol, I only have problems when I'm without alcohol!" :|
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Re: Alcohol

Post by Redfaery » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:38 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Apart from medical or ritual purposes, what else is a "good reason" to drink alcohol?
In many societies, alas, the consumption of alcohol is a necessary part of bonding with one's peers. I personally see this as unfortunate, but it's still there, and I'm also aware that many if not most people are capable of going out for a beer with their coworkers and coming out of the experience with nothing more than a heightened sense of camaraderie.
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Grigoris
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Re: Alcohol

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:00 pm

Redfaery wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Apart from medical or ritual purposes, what else is a "good reason" to drink alcohol?
In many societies, alas, the consumption of alcohol is a necessary part of bonding with one's peers. I personally see this as unfortunate, but it's still there, and I'm also aware that many if not most people are capable of going out for a beer with their coworkers and coming out of the experience with nothing more than a heightened sense of camaraderie.
I bond just fine with my peers without drinking alcohol. So it is obviously not necessary (like breathing is necessary).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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