Dropping Jesus

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by dzogchungpa »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:Bottom Line: Christianity is about as monolithic as Buddhism is.
Indeed.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
SeeLion
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by SeeLion »

Well buddhist hells aren't a place your condemned to for eternity for some silly reason.
It's just the result of your actions.
If we would look into the matter, there is much less difference between the 2 concepts than it may seem at first glance.

The obvious difference is that Christian hell happens as a result of an external judgement (but it's still a result of your own actions). And the "eternity" part is an obvious conclusion to the "lack of" re-incarnation in Christianity. But that is a big subject which is off topic here. (actually, it seems to go against the forum rules).

Sure, there's that problem that some Christians will be more than happy to tell you that you are going to hell, like it was their authority to send you there. Which is clearly against Christian teachings.

And the cause of the problem is that some people are angry or fearful, and they may find inside any religion something that can be used as a weapon. It's just a matter of being creative.

Like I said above, it's too easy to assume we correctly know what this is and what that is and what's silly and what isn't silly.

Sometimes I find helpful to to practice the method of self-doubt, projected upon my own statements. And luckily, this is much easier to do when writing on a forum than debating face-to-face.

It may be a waste of time, but I often find myself editing my own posts a dozen times.
Last edited by SeeLion on Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:12 am, edited 13 times in total.
SeeLion
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by SeeLion »

By the way, it seems we may have a problem:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... ead#unread
RULES
This is not a "comparative religion site", it is a site to learn and discuss the Buddha's teachings without animosity. In support of this:

~ Badmouthing of other spiritual paths is not allowed.
I'm quite new to the forum, not sure how all this works, but seems this may be going in the wrong direction.
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Ayu
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Ayu »

SeeLion wrote:By the way, it seems we may have a problem:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... ead#unread
RULES
This is not a "comparative religion site", it is a site to learn and discuss the Buddha's teachings without animosity. In support of this:

~ Badmouthing of other spiritual paths is not allowed.
I'm quite new to the forum, not sure how all this works, but seems this may be going in the wrong direction.
A good reminder, thank you.
Maybe it would be better to concentrate on buddhism again.
MiphamFan
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by MiphamFan »

Some people also have issues with the idea that there is no liberation outside Buddhadharma.

I don't blame other religions for saying people who don't follow their religion will not attain the fruit in their religion -- it's quite logical, the reason why we as Buddhists claim there is no liberation outside Buddhadharma rests on similar rationale: no other path describes the base, the path, the fruit of Buddhadharma, or they would be Buddhadharma.

Of course I think the base, path and fruit of Buddhadharma is most accurate, that's why I follow it. Also, Buddhadharma does account for the virtue in other paths, while the Abrahamic paths generally don't account for virtues of pagans.
Rakz
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Rakz »

Can never see myself as a Christian as the contradictions with science and reason are too mind numbingly apparent. I do though find the story of Jesus much more believable than stories of non historical bodhisattvas practicing for aeons and aeons in different world systems until finally reaching buddhahood.
Jesse
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Jesse »

Tenso wrote:Can never see myself as a Christian as the contradictions with science and reason are too mind numbingly apparent. I do though find the story of Jesus much more believable than stories of non historical bodhisattvas practicing for aeons and aeons in different world systems until finally reaching buddhahood.
So parting the sea in half with magic and leading an army of ppl through is less believable than other realms of existence? :shrug: I can at least prove another realm of existence exists - dreams. You can have a 10 hour long dream in about 2 minutes of real world time.

I think you'l find many oppose Christianity for the sole reason being that we were indoctrinated into it against our will, which leaves plenty of annoying relics in our minds.. shame, guilt, fear etc.. so it's kind of a touchy subject with some. I do believe any religion can be used to practice spirituality, I just think there are many dumb beliefs that serve no purpose except for controlling people. Fear mongering etc.

Even Buddhism has some nonsensical beliefs, to be fair.
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
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Ayu
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Ayu »

Btw also in Buddhism they are talking about hell. The way to reach there is either by exhausting good karma within the deva realms or by accumulating negative karma by generating hatred strongly. Hatred is the worst and only real enemy, it is said (for example by Shantideva).
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Queequeg
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Queequeg »

Jesse wrote: Even Buddhism has some nonsensical beliefs, to be fair.
Shut the front door!

Upaya. All upaya.

Jesus?

Upaya.

Mohamed?

Upaya.

Buddha?

Not upaya?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Jesus?

Upaya.
No, not an upāya, either for his followers, nor for Buddhists who do not have any need for Jesus.

Mohamed?

Upaya.
No, not an upāya, either for his followers, nor for Buddhists who do not have any need for Muhammed.
Buddha?

Not upaya?
Buddha is the definitive meaning for Buddhists, so no, again, not an upāya.
Upaya. All upaya.
Not everything is an upāya.
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Queequeg
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote:
Queequeg wrote: Jesus?

Upaya.
No, not an upāya, either for his followers, nor for Buddhists who do not have any need for Jesus.

Mohamed?

Upaya.
No, not an upāya, either for his followers, nor for Buddhists who do not have any need for Muhammed.
Buddha?

Not upaya?
Buddha is the definitive meaning for Buddhists, so no, again, not an upāya.
Upaya. All upaya.
Not everything is an upāya.
How do you define upaya?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Queequeg wrote: Jesus?

Upaya.
No, not an upāya, either for his followers, nor for Buddhists who do not have any need for Jesus.

Mohamed?

Upaya.
No, not an upāya, either for his followers, nor for Buddhists who do not have any need for Muhammed.
Buddha?

Not upaya?
Buddha is the definitive meaning for Buddhists, so no, again, not an upāya.
Upaya. All upaya.
Not everything is an upāya.
How do you define upaya?
A means used to bring people to the definitive meaning which is the Buddha, i.e. the state of total awakening.
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Queequeg
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Queequeg »

Are means which draw a person closer to total awakening yet not completely, not upaya?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote:Are means which draw a person closer to total awakening yet not completely, not upaya?
The question you ought to asking yourself is whether the two worldly traditions you have identified as "upāya" will draw a person anywhere even within the vicinity of total awakening, let alone near it.
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Queequeg
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Queequeg »

I'm not ready to write everything non-Buddhist off. Convince me.

What about my question?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

I think I unfortunately started this.

I refer to my skillful means of framing Jesus as a buddha or bodhisattva as a way of disarming all my Christian imprinting as an upaya.

It's a little different than saying Christianity is an upaya.
Malcolm
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote:I'm not ready to write everything non-Buddhist off. Convince me.

What is the cause of samsara?
Malcolm
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: What about my question?
I answered it with another question.
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Queequeg
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote:
Queequeg wrote: What about my question?
I answered it with another question.
I don't think your question answered my question at all.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Queequeg »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:I think I unfortunately started this.

I refer to my skillful means of framing Jesus as a buddha or bodhisattva as a way of disarming all my Christian imprinting as an upaya.

It's a little different than saying Christianity is an upaya.
I don't think you're implicated in this.

Sit back, relax. Let this play out.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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